125: Ganjier Program, Educating the Cannabis Industry ft. Max Simon – Transcript

Max Simon, 8th Revolution

Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

This week we are joined by Max Simon CEO of Green Flower, to discuss:

  • Adopting universities to cannabis education
  • Why trained employees stay longer
  • Certified Ganjier Program
  • And so much more

About Green Flower:

Green Flower is the industry standard for cannabis education and training, working with industry leaders since 2014 to create best-in-class training programs for individuals and businesses.

About Ganjier Program: Just as the wine, cheese, beer, chocolate, and cigar industries have highly-trained, certified experts qualified to distinguish the nuanced qualities of their respective products, the burgeoning cannabis industry is in dire need of its own class of educated and certified professionals that help consumers find and enjoy products that exceed their expectations.

#Cannabis #CannabisEducation #Cannabiscommunity

At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev), we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.

8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain

The Dime is a top 50 Cannabis Podcast 

Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney


[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys? Welcome back to the episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields, and with me as always is Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a super special guest, Max Simon’s, CEO of Green Flower Max, thanks for taking the time. How you

[00:00:13]Max Simon: doing today? Good to be with you guys. Looking forward to this.

[00:00:16]Bryan Fields: Yeah, looking forward to dive.

[00:00:17] Kellen, how are you doing?

[00:00:18]Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. Looking forward to chatting about, uh, education. I think it’s a really important topic and it’s, it’s needed, uh, for the

[00:00:24]Bryan Fields: industry. How are you, Brian? I’m doing well. It’s desperately needed this industry. And Max, for the record, I know you are located in California, but I know your team is just repeated across the United States, so I don’t know if we can put that one up for the West Coast.

[00:00:37] What do you think, Kelly? I think it’s a

[00:00:38]Kellan Finney: West coast, right? Yeah. Incorporated in California.

[00:00:41]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I guess that’s fair. We’ll, we’ll give Max on the West Coast. So Max, for our listeners that are unfamiliar with you, can you give it a little background about

[00:00:48]Max Simon: yourself? Yeah, personally, um, I’ve been a long time can medical cannabis patient, I u use it daily for adhd and it’s actually very regimented for me.

[00:00:59] So it’s a, [00:01:00] it’s a medicine that I use very methodically and have for a long time. Um, and my, my personal background, I should say my career background is all, all in digital education. I. I spent nine years building Deepak Chopra’s business, which was a, uh, an education business around mind body medicine and yoga and meditation.

[00:01:17] And we were able to, you know, tr train th thousands and thousands of meditation teachers and kind of mainstream many of these mind body medicine principles into the world. Um, and have then was a serial entrepreneur after that, did many different businesses, um, over the years and then found my way to the cannabis industry in.

[00:01:37] 13, where I was one of the first consultants of a vape pen company here in California, and that opened my eyes to the fact that this industry was just gonna be an enormous. Enormous industry that had so much potential and you know, nobody really knew the realities of it. Um, there was just all the stigma and, and the bs.

[00:01:58] And so I [00:02:00] realized from my background we were gonna need, you know, well educated, well trained people. And, and over the years, green flour has stepped up to kind of fill that need.

[00:02:08]Bryan Fields: Was there always the idea that the intersection between the educational background and cannabis would merge, Like take us through the origin?

[00:02:14] When did that idea kind of spark for

[00:02:16]Max Simon: you? No, no. I, I was, it was 2013 when I was, um, so my last business was basically helping other experts move into online businesses and, and so I worked. Thousands of different experts to help them build their businesses and, and kind of create the infrastructure to move online into online education.

[00:02:37] And, and I was just, quite frankly, he bored of helping other people build their businesses, you know, even though it was a successful business, I got. Tired of helping other people. So I was really looking for like, okay, what’s the next thing that I specifically wanna build? And that’s when I got this cannabis consulting gig, which, you know, was so interesting to me because I was a personal consumer for all these years, but just didn’t, [00:03:00] didn’t know a damn thing about the, this kind of legal industry that was developing it.

[00:03:04] But in doing this consulting gig in 2013 in California, I just saw. Man, you know, this is an absolutely miraculous plant and an industry that’ll be way bigger than people are anticipating it. And with my background in education, you know, people are, need to understand, there need some, some credibility and some trust to, to be able to participate in this sector.

[00:03:25] So that’s, that’s what brought us to Green Flower. Was there any like

[00:03:28]Kellan Finney: one moment where you were doing that consulting gig where you were like, Wow, this is exactly where education needs to be brought into this space? When you’re looking at those manufacturers

[00:03:36]Max Simon: back in California, I mean, truth be told, even back then, it was more just seeing the writing on the wall for how big the industry was gonna be.

[00:03:45] Um, and, and so I got initially excited not so much by the, the, the mission more by the business opportunity early on and, and I just said, you know, I was very early in mind body medicine and spirituality. And we built an [00:04:00] enormous industry or enormous business, you know, being the, the, the credibility source, the, the trusted source of information.

[00:04:07] And so it started off very entrepreneurial to me, but in the, in the very beginning we started to, you know, really interview the doctors and interview the scientists and interview the cultivators. And that’s when I. Wow, this is so much more complex, sophisticated, There’s so much more to learn than anybody has any clue of, and that’s what really helped me realize the importance of the education side is it’s not just a, a great business opportunity, it’s that this is really complex and, and misunderstood, and we really need to do a good job of educating people to, to um, lift up the.

[00:04:44] I tip

[00:04:45]Bryan Fields: my hat to you because early on, I mean, 2013 online education was still kind of new. So to take in an approach where cannabis is, the online education is a very, very new approach. I I, I tip my hats. You there? So then what are the first steps, right? Take us through the macro concept, those first [00:05:00] steps.

[00:05:00] When you’re building out an educational platform, it’s a big, big burden to take on that approach. There’s constant changes. There’s, there’s various roles. Where do you start and how do you get.

[00:05:10]Max Simon: And, and to answer that question, I’ll say, you know, green flour has zigzagged a lot over the years. And, and I would say that from 2014, when we founded the company really up until 2018, um, we really tried a bunch of stuff, right?

[00:05:28] We tried stuff and so we tried stuff from doing, you know, I produced the first Cannabis Health Summit online. Which had like 30,000 people attend to it. It was nuts, you know, an enormous reach. Um, so we did, you know, online summits in, in different capacities. I did the Cannabis Health Summit, the Cannabis Business Summit, the Cannabis Entrepreneurs Summit, the C P D Summit, you know, so we did like these online educational forums.

[00:05:52] We produced a lot of kind of short form. Content, um, where you were, you know, sitting down with experts and talking to ’em about [00:06:00] different content or different subjects in the industry. So we did like a lot of random stuff. Um, and some of it stuck, some of it didn’t stick. Some of it was exciting and some of it was just a total dud, but really it was like 20, like I said, around kind of 2018 when I started to realize like, okay, the, the professional education.

[00:06:21] Side of this where you’re training people to be professionals and succeed in the industry is where we were finding business traction and why, where we were finding kind of that, that product to market fit. And so we started to double down into building, you know, really professional based education programs around that time and, and that’s when the business really started to gain its level of traction that it has today.

[00:06:46]Kellan Finney: What was the first, uh, professional level that you guys built from like a training?

[00:06:50]Max Simon: I mean, funny and to say this, but we did like a, a cannabis licensing program in the beginning where we were working with some of the, at the time, the [00:07:00] only people doing real license consultation that was winning those licenses.

[00:07:03] And so we did like a program on on getting license cert licensure, which was successful. And actually our first real smash hit was when we did the cannabis fundamentals program and it was to train people in cannabis fundamentals. For participating in the industry. And I remember we released that program and sold like seven or 800 units, like right out of the gate.

[00:07:24] And that was when we really realized like, Oh, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s working better than anything we’ve done to date.

[00:07:31]Bryan Fields: Is, is there a certain demographic that kind of tends towards this? Is it, is it the older generation? It’s the younger generation, like cannabis is all over. Is there a certain generation that tends to, to spew one

[00:07:40]Max Simon: way?

[00:07:41] Well, so that’s a great question and, and I think it probably is best answered by how the business has developed because there are definitely people that skewed to different stuff. So today the business has these three limbs. One limb is that we, um, partner with colleges and universities to power their cannabis programs.

[00:07:59] Um, [00:08:00] Continuing education department, meaning it’s through the kind of workforce development department where lots of those people are, tend to be, um, over 30 and in fact, over 40 is usually the medium. They’re people that come from other professions or other industries, but now they’re looking to get into cannabis.

[00:08:18] And so the, the, the college and university channel serves that market, you know, the older. Kind of job seeker who’s trying to transition into this industry from existing experience or existing background in other spaces. Um, and we’re finding a lot of traction in that space, you know? Then we have ganger, which is our cannabis sommelier program, and that program tends to attract hardcore.

[00:08:42] Cannabis lovers. I mean, at the end of the day, and, and it’s split between people that are in the industry already and working in all sorts of roles. I mean, we have people in retail and cultivation and management all the way up to the CEOs. Um, you know, and, and then the other half of the people is people that have been smoking for [00:09:00] 30 years and now they’re looking to have something that validates their level of, of understanding and knowledge about.

[00:09:06] You know the sophisticated elements of cannabis, the more nuanced connoisseur elements of cannabis . So that program appeals to that. And then we have the third limit of the business that is becoming the training backbone of the cannabis operators themselves. Meaning we’re training their employees and that, you know, is getting, giving us a crazy look into who works inside the industry because you’re seeing, you know, everybody.

[00:09:29] In that space from, from their new hires all the way up to their leadership. And you know, we’re touching kind of everybody in that domain that works inside the industry. So it’s a business that touches all these different people in different ways based upon the channel. They’re kind of coming through. I wanna go

[00:09:44]Kellan Finney: back to, uh, the university program.

[00:09:47] How challenging was it to first to get your first program with, uh, a college university because it’s cannabis? And how much has that conversation changed in the last four

[00:09:56]Max Simon: years? It was [00:10:00] so hard to crack that nut. Um, I mean, I I, it’s funny cuz now today, so we have 30, as of today, 33. College and university partnership.

[00:10:10] Congratulations. Wow. It’s been a while. You know, it just announced, I just announced a whole series of ’em, and we’re gonna end the year probably like closer to 40 if you can believe it. Um, which is, which boggles my mind because in, from, you know, I started approaching schools in 2017 is when, when I personally started going to schools and, and you know, the response was some version.

[00:10:32] No, um, that sounds really interesting. Snicker, snicker, we’ll run it through the PPO and then, you know, go away, um, to, this does sound really interesting, but we’re gonna get everybody in our university involved in the conversation to see if we can get everybody comfortable in it. And, and so then it almost always got killed at that point because, you know, you had 50 different people’s opinions about cannabis, which doesn’t go well.

[00:10:56] Um, and it was, it was impossible. I mean, quite frankly, it was just not [00:11:00] working at all. We kept going because of the fact that, you know, most people don’t know this if you’re not studied in, in the sector, but, but there’s thousands and thousands of colleges and universities across the country. You know, their business is education.

[00:11:14] So if you’re in the education business, it’s, it’s one of the, the best channels to participate in. And what I learned is that once you. Kind of get a few people on board. You know, schools are kind of like sheep. They, they end up following the pack. And so we knew that if we could get a few of these over the line, it should.

[00:11:33] Quote and Quote create this domino effect. And so we started in 2017, got laughed out of every room all the way until 2019. Um, years of approaching schools and going through this process and getting really, like, we got really, really close with one school and then the president at Signature cancelled it It was like, Aah heartbreaking.

[00:11:53] You know, And our, especially being our first one, . Um, Yeah. Months of diligence and, [00:12:00] and, and then yeah. Killed literally at the last possible second that we thought, and we thought this was going to signature, you know, know the guy comes back, I’ll apologize ap. So anyways, all this is happening. And then finally in 2019 1 of our investors is, is, um, I don’t know if he was on the board or just really close to the board at Florida Atlantic University in Florida.

[00:12:21] And, and he basically Kind of personally vouches for us. And they say, Oh sure, what the hell? We’ll give it a try. And we get the first program finally over the line and we get it launched. And it has, it’s not even tremendously successful. It was just a little bit successful. But it was enough for us to then start to go to the other schools and say, See, Florida Atlantic did this.

[00:12:42] Do you want to get on board? And it’s true. All it just started going, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, and then particularly Covid really helped us because here comes covid. All of a sudden, all these schools are in total disruption mode. None of them are prepared to switch [00:13:00] everything online. They’re all worried about their budgets and cannabis is deemed essential.

[00:13:05] And so it has this kind of boost in a, a, you know, a stigma standpoint that makes ’em feel okay. And so we went from two, or, uh, I guess we were just at. We’d signed two, maybe three schools before Covid started, and then now we’re at 30, 32 or 33, you know, here in 2022. So it’s been a, a crazy few years of building since that time.

[00:13:30]Bryan Fields: I definitely have my beef with traditional education, but I, I mean from your pitch standpoint, right? You’re going to these universities, you’re giving students an opportunity to transition, to get a skill set into an industry that’s absolutely exploding, right? Like at least the universities can agree they are going to be jobs to help these students kind of.

[00:13:46] Progress forward. So it’s, it’s kind of sad to hear those stories, but it, it’s, it’s it’s eye-opening, right? Because those are the experiences that are happening and that’s what’s so critical for you and your mission of kind of helping bring the, the stigma and reducing that normalization of [00:14:00] cannabis to the forefront.

[00:14:01]Max Simon: And, and you know, I have this same beef with higher education. Um, I hated college. I hated it. I literally hated the academic infrastructure of college because it was a waste of time and I was studying and being forced to do all this other stuff. But where we found a, an amazing niche, which is totally reinvigorated my belief in it is, you know, these continuing education programs are like focused credentials that are shorter and.

[00:14:30] Um, focused on, on skills and, and workforce development needs. And so, you know, we love operating in this university pseudo system. You know, we’re not an undergraduate program. We’re not in these degree programs. They’re not these huge lengthy time processes. They’re shorter skills based workforce development programs.

[00:14:49] And, and as a result of that, We’re just seeing all the stu the, the stories of students saying, I came to this. I didn’t know much. I took the programs. I now know cannabis. I was able to take this and [00:15:00] parlay it into a job. You know, it’s short and tight and I could do it on my own. And so I really love this continuing education environment because it, it’s focused, it’s tight, it’s cheaper, it’s faster.

[00:15:11] But it actually is very, very skills based kind of workforce development based. So it’s kind of reinvigorated my love for higher education, being in this little tiny silo that exists within that universe. I mean, it’s

[00:15:23]Kellan Finney: also like a rare gem too for universities because you’re providing a solution for kids that wanna get in the industry and now they have the ability to gain the skills to actually be successful in the

[00:15:34]Bryan Fields: in.

[00:15:35]Max Simon: Yeah,

[00:15:35]Bryan Fields: exactly. Let’s talk about some of those skills. Uh, I know you’ve got some announcements coming up. We’d love to hear kind of what they can gain from the program. Yeah,

[00:15:43]Max Simon: so the, the, the programs that are, you know, just about to come out that are actually not even through the universities to be clear, um, that’s not true.

[00:15:51] Some of the community colleges are offering some of these programs, but, you know, , the cannabis industry is such a. A complex place, and as [00:16:00] somebody who’s now been here long enough to understand all the channels, you realize that there is so much to learn about this industry and how it operates and how it works.

[00:16:10] And where we’ve been finding kind of greater and greater levels of success is getting more and more narrow in terms of what you’re training people around. And so we have these three. Programs that are built by the, the GF Institute, which is a, and actually a, a another part of the business. But it’s the part of the business that, that is, um, about developing standards.

[00:16:33] And so we, we gathered together 40. Cannabis operators that had collectively 25,000 employees in this space. And we worked with them to create these kind of shorter credential programs that are designed to be a baseline level of proficiency for that sector. So we have three sectors. We have the dispensary associate program, the cultivation Technician program, and the manufacturing agent program because we have [00:17:00] found, quite frankly, The most amount of people that are getting hired and are coming into the industry are coming in to work at retail, work in cultivation, or work in the the manufacturing and the brand building process.

[00:17:11] We’ve got these three programs now that took, you know, about 15 months to really create that, that consensus mechanism with the steering committee, with the, with the people in the GF Institute to say, now these, they’re only about six to eight hour programs are the baseline level of proficiency that somebody needs to have to work in cannabis retail.

[00:17:33] Or to work in cannabis cultivation or to work in cannabis manufacturing. And so I’m really excited about these programs cuz it’s, it’s the first time from my standpoint that we’ve got programs that are so pinpointed towards, these are the skills you need to get jobs in the industry and here are the sectors of the industry that you can get jobs around if you take these programs.

[00:17:54] So that’s, that’s been kind of our big push coming into the end of this. Were [00:18:00] they 1 0 1

[00:18:00]Bryan Fields: level classes? To clarify? And are, are there any differences from like a state by

[00:18:04]Max Simon: state standpoint? They’re definitely baseline level of proficiency. So for example, you know, in the cultivation program you learn the stages of the plant growing cycle.

[00:18:17] Right. So you learn about each stage of the plant, You learn about the fundamentals of growing cannabis, watering, lighting, soil mediums, nutrients. You know, you learn kind of baseline levels of proficiency. Um, and then you learn about, you know, uh, harvesting and processing and curing and storage. Um, because in the cultivation process, that’s everything that happens, right from seed to harvest, basically seed to production.

[00:18:44] But as I’m saying this, you. know We’ve learned this is baseline level of proficiency, but I’m willing to bet you that 99% of people that will listen to this podcast actually doesn’t even have that baseline level of proficiency. They don’t know all those stages of the cycles. They don’t, [00:19:00] none understand what nutrients do.

[00:19:01] They don’t understand the harvestings, you know, and so, As simple and foundational as they are, um, everybody that goes through these programs learns a ton because nobody really has had proper education to be in this space unless they’ve learned on the job. And even then, you know, questionable how, uh, how uh, comprehensive that learning really is.

[00:19:23]Bryan Fields: Yeah. So each

[00:19:24]Kellan Finney: program’s very, very different. Was there one that was a little more challenging to put together than the other ones?

[00:19:29]Max Simon: I mean, the manufacturing program is so cool. The manufacturing program goes through each extraction methodology, so you really like understand ethanol versus CO2 versus solventless base because, you know, that’s how the products are being made.

[00:19:44] So, so you, we had to find the experts to, to walk us through each of these extraction processes. And then we went through each cannabis product type, um, you know, vape pens. Flower and pre-rolls. [00:20:00] Um, Kind of everything and, and you walk through the manufacturing process that can be used to make these products.

[00:20:07] And, and so it was very technical. I think that’s my point. It was a very technical based program, but the end result is that, man, you know, talk about something that’s value oriented. Like if you wanna learn to build cannabis products and learn the manufacturing process of how these products are made, you go through this eight hour training and bam, you know, you’ll, you’ll.

[00:20:29] S you’ll be so far ahead of the pack. Um, so that was the most program, difficult program to create. But I also have a tremendous amount of optimism about the influence of that program because it’ll give people such a great foundation to be able to succeed in cannabis manufacturing. That’s the point. ,

[00:20:45]Bryan Fields: how was the response been with, let’s say, large operators in this space?

[00:20:48] Obviously, some of these MSOs are scaling incredibly fast and having a resource like yours in order to bring credential employees is probably making a massive difference. How’s been the response?

[00:20:58]Max Simon: Well, so I, I’d like to [00:21:00] answer that in a few phases. You know, we’ve been talking to a lot of these operators for many years, um, especially the big guys.

[00:21:08] And, um, I can tell you that only this year, and I mean, I’m afraid to say this, but only like really the second half of the year as everybody’s gotten the, you know, the living heck kicked out of ’em, have these operators started to say to themselves, You know, we really should probably do more for our people.

[00:21:28] I, I, I don’t know how else to say that, but there’s been a, a, a a pretty noticeable. Tonality shift that has taken place this year from the operators. And, and I’m grateful to say, just like with the schools after all these years of feeling like we were kind of hitting a, a wall, talking to these people about training and educating their people this year has had a seismic shift in that.

[00:21:54] And, and we’ve had, you know, literally. Some of the largest operators sign on to now get their whole [00:22:00] en entire company certified through these programs. Um, and so that’s, I’m grateful to say is a, but a very new development that has happened really in the second half of this year, um, that I’m grateful for.

[00:22:12] And I think, again, it goes back to the very simple explanation that a lot of these operators have realized they can’t just. Blindly funding their operations, you know, forever. And so we’ve gotta get their costs and their culture under control. And, and that’s, you know, a lot of times about your people and about making sure your people have the education and training and, you know, guidance that need to be successful.

[00:22:34] So there’s been a, a grateful sea change just recently after lots of years of feeling like this was not gonna work. .

[00:22:43]Bryan Fields: It’s one thing to have an expensive mistake from an inexperienced operator, right? It’s another thing when you compare that to what it would’ve cost from an educational standpoint, if you would’ve trained your team in order to avoid those mistakes, and unfortunately it seems like a lot of those operators maybe have run into those mistakes and realized maybe there’s a more cost effective solution that would be [00:23:00] helpful for us.

[00:23:00]Max Simon: Well, and the turnover is so crazy. Like just , just this week we were going through our list of kind of, um, you know, people that we’ve, we’ve worked with deeply in the curriculum development process over the years. And I, I would, I mean this is probably a little over far reach, but I would say that somewhere north of nor, definitely north of 50%, maybe even north of 75% weren’t at the same company they were at when we did the process.

[00:23:29] You know, it was like, so ma and you know, and this is like the CEO level. I mean, I couldn’t tell you how many of these groups I went to and I was like, Oh, Jesus, the CEO’s not there anymore. Oh man. CEO’s not there anymore. Like over and over and over again. I was seeing this happen. So I think the real issue that we’re tackling is the turnover issue is so expensive.

[00:23:51] The turnover issue, and you know, we are so deeply embedded with these HR groups. We know that. You know, the cost to recruit people, to interview [00:24:00] people, to hire people, to train people, you know, to provide all the infrastructure. It’s expensive. It’s really expensive, and I think that for whatever reason, and I don’t understand it, these cannabis companies just kind of turned a blind eye to the fact that their turnover was what it was and high as it was, and expensive as it was, was.

[00:24:19] But now in this environment, they’re saying we can’t. Can’t do that. And so, quite frankly, even just providing training pathways that people have to go through over the series of a few months will extend the shelf life of employees. And even at that like very baseline level of business, it’s like if you can get another few months outta your employees, the programs pay for themself.

[00:24:39] Don’t forget about the culture boost, Forget about the more effectiveness of your team, the better results that they. This will pay for itself and that’s what’s being proven out now through all these operators coming on board. But boy, it’s taken us years to get that message. To get through.

[00:24:55]Kellan Finney: Why do you think it took so long for

[00:24:56]Max Simon: the message to get through?

[00:24:57] I mean, I really think that a, a lot [00:25:00] of the, the, the cannabis operators that are more than a 10 person shop, right? Because the truth is there’s, there’s a, you know, a huge portion of our market that’s, I mean, maybe not 10, but you know, sub 20, sub 30 people, small groups, and, and those people actually do tend to treat their employees better, and they do tend to be more caring, and they do tend to embrace training more in that whole thing.

[00:25:24] The problem is, is that that, you know, the industry also has this whole other bucket of people that are super well funded and, and are, have money and have the business background, and I just feel like they, that group of people. Definitely felt like money was always gonna be there, so, so they didn’t have to take this seriously.

[00:25:44] And also were so intertwined in the expansion plans, the licensing and all the other stuff, that it was just kind of an afterthought. And when you, you know, when you brought it up, it was just kind of like, you know, and my list of priorities, I’m not gonna make that a big priority. [00:26:00] And I just feel like, quite frankly, it’s just caught up to them.

[00:26:02] And now that they can’t, their money’s dried up. Their turnover is an issue and it’s very expensive, and they are forced now to take this seriously because they’re bleeding. You know, they’re bleeding and like you kind of can’t, can’t ignore it. No, it’s, it’s

[00:26:18]Bryan Fields: perfectly said. I think there’s so many reasons why they, they wanted to do it, but just didn’t prioritize it.

[00:26:23] And then when they didn’t have the type of capital that they had, because they were burning cash incredibly fast, they all had to look inwards. And the easiest way to do that is be like, All right, well, let’s stop having to, to hire new people on a regular basis. Let’s extend that, that month to month standpoint.

[00:26:36] And like you said, Max, like if they stay an extra two or three months and it pays for itself, plus we have to train. It’s a win-win for all. I guess my question to you is, hypothetically, have you ever had any conversations with the government in regards to helping kind of lift the industry as a whole?

[00:26:50]Max Simon: Yeah, I mean, we, we, first off, one of the things that Green Flour’s done is, um, there is training requirements in many states, you know, many different states [00:27:00] around the country has, whether it’s retail training requirements or, um, there’s food safety training requirements, um, and, and so on. And so green flour is accredited.

[00:27:10] Every state where that training is, um, offered to employees. And because of that, we then work with the, the government agencies, you know, the, the, the cannabis task force in each of those states. Um, on top of that, we have a partnership with a group that is kind of the training arm of the fda. Um, and so we have our inroads there and.

[00:27:30] Um, ultimately what I would tell you is that first and foremost training will become, um, required upon federal legalization. It, this is a heavily regulated industry and every heavy regulated industry has training requirements. So there, there’s a inevitability that, um, you know, federal legalization will bring forward certain level of training and educational requirements, and that will lift up the industry and its nature.

[00:27:58] I think, you know, like. [00:28:00] Even the operators, a lot of these government companies, they, they, their government agents, they come from knowing nothing about cannabis. And so they step into this world and it’s just a fire hose. And so I think just like operators, they’re trying to, they’re trying their best to prioritize the priorities.

[00:28:17] And they’re failing a lot of the time because they’re just kind of guessing at these things. But I would say that it’s, you know, kind of in the mix of their consideration to help use training to live up the industry. But it’s 1 of 500 other things that they’re also trying to, to tackle and figure out.

[00:28:33] Do you guys currently

[00:28:34]Kellan Finney: have some, uh, federal guidance in your certification programs like OSHA stuff or anything like

[00:28:39]Max Simon: that? Yep. We do. We, we have, um, we actually are just about to finish. I was hoping by this podcast, um, I would be able to, to, to claim it, but we haven’t yet. So we’re just a, in the final throws of this multi-year antsy, uh, accreditation process, Ansy is the, basically the international standard setting body for, for standards.

[00:28:59] Um, [00:29:00] and we will have the. Cannabis food safety equivalent, meaning right now, even food safety, um, requirements, people are doing kind of generic food safety training. Um, and we have the cannabis. Centric version of that, that’s now in the final stages of being accredited, um, which will be offered to all the operators to do things like that.

[00:29:23] So, you know, but this is, it’s another good example of like, you know, you have to build something that’s cannabis centric, cuz that doesn’t even exist. And then you have to spend years going through the accreditation process and them asking the literal, you know, dumbest questions you could imagine. Um, and getting through this whole process just to have the cannabis equivalent of food safety

[00:29:45] So it’s, everything’s

[00:29:47]Kellan Finney: harder in

[00:29:47]Max Simon: cannabis. Every, everything is harder, takes longer, you’ll get told. So much more than you expect. Um, but that’s also, you know, personally, why I’ve loved being in cannabis so much is [00:30:00] personally, it has made me such a resilient leader. Um, you know, I just, I, it’s shocking to me how many times we’ve been told, No, this won’t work.

[00:30:09] We can’t do it. I, and blah, blah, whatever it is, just some version of no. and have had to move around it somehow, whether it’s through that person or through another service or through another option or coming back or whatever. But that’s just kind of what you have to do. And you do it enough times. You start to realize, I can do this with everything

[00:30:26] You know, I can be this resilient with everything in my life. And that’s, That’s a gift. A gift,

[00:30:31]Bryan Fields: Yeah. It’s perfectly sad. At a certain point, you just don’t feel it anymore. You’re like, I, Well, onto the next, we’ll figure it out from there. Exactly. So give us a sneak peek into the, the GIA program. Is it cannabis small?

[00:30:42] Yay. Give us some, some insights into that.

[00:30:44]Max Simon: This is my favorite thing in the world to talk about because I personally think it’s like the most fun and interesting thing that we do. So, um, the origin story here is that me and the co-founder of Gia, Derek, were sitting on a couch smoking a joint. Just absolutely.[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Hating on how bad the service was at retail. Just like absolutely hating on how terrible the service is. And, and I spend a lot of time traveling around the country, you know, oftentimes training these, these companies and you just see, like, I would, I hate to say this, but I would probably say like eight outta 10 times the recommendations that people in retail give to consumers is, Agree.

[00:31:22] It, it’s, it’s, it’s really terribly off base. So we were riffing about this and, and saying, Gotta be a way we can fix this issue. But, you know, you could do bud tender training, but people don’t really care about that. So who, who in other industries has created a, a master of can of, of products and service?

[00:31:41] Basically, that was the question. Who in other industries has created a masters of products and service? And when we started asking that question, it was obvious, you know, Wine Sommers exist there. There’s actually a program in the beer industry called Cerrone where people get certified to be cerrone’s.

[00:31:58] There’s coffee cups, you know, [00:32:00] there’s, um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s train professionals and, and actually every sector that have a certain level of qualification that distinguishes them. And so we realized that and we started studying, uh, the framework of these programs and looking at how.

[00:32:18] Structure looks and we took that structure and then we rallied together this group of 18 individuals. Called the GGE Council that has about 600 years of cannabis experience. And we said, if we wanna train people to be experts in products, experts in assessment, and experts in service, because those are the, the pillars of what these other industries really bring to the table, how would we do it?

[00:32:39] And so we spent three years. Building the curriculum of what needs to be included in training people as masters of cannabis products and service. We built this GIA systematic assessment protocol, which is basically a, a, a, a methodology for assessing cannabis using, um, you know, aroma flavor, [00:33:00] experience and the, the, the visual, the appearance of it.

[00:33:03] Um, and then we built the app to be able to walk people through it. We built this live curriculum so that we could train people on these assessment methodologies to develop their pallets and understand how to recognize aromas and flavors and understand, you know, what good looks like and what doesn’t.

[00:33:18] And then we, we bought a campus in Humboldt. We, we got this 250 acre campus in Humbolt where now people can come into on a monthly basis and do this training. And so, Spent almost, it was almost three years, two and a half years building the, the, just the infrastructure of it, the training online programs, the curriculums, the apps, all that other stuff.

[00:33:37] Launched it in the beginning of 2021. The whole year’s program sold out in three weeks the first year. Um, and so we sold the whole thing out in the first month and then spent the year putting people. Right. And, and it was incredibly eye-opening because, you know, we had to create an examination process to validate if people could pass this criteria.

[00:33:59] And [00:34:00] then we had lots of people fail the exams and it was this like big dramatic thing. And, and still to this day, a third of the people that take those exams still, even with all the things we do, still fail ’em. Um, it’s, it’s a difficult thing to get through. But, you know, you go through this whole process in year one, it.

[00:34:17] It’s emotional, but you know, it works. And then we, I know from building these educational programs, you have to just kind of, year two is really where the rubber meets the road. Cause you can make anything sound appealing and sexy outta the gate. And, and then you need to see if it holds weight. And fortunately we, we sold out year two as well.

[00:34:34] And so we’ve been certifying everybody through year two. This year we’ve really got the processes dialed in and, and now we’ve got 165 certified goias out in the community. People that have gone through and gotten certified. Um, and they’re, uh, You know, doing everything from, like I said, we’ve got CEOs and lawyers and researchers all the way to people that are now running retail management or running product development of, of a lot of these, these growing [00:35:00] companies.

[00:35:00] So it’s been this amazing process where you just get to absolutely geek out on all things cannabis and then study by practicing assessing cannabis, and you know, really learning the smells, the aromas, the flavors, and how those translates to the effects. And so it’s such. It’s an amazingly cool process where you get so intimately connected to the plant and in that process you really learn how to communicate to other people about all the nuances that make cannabis what it is.

[00:35:28]Kellan Finney: So with the wine sommelier, I, isn’t there a massive fail rate? Like that’s a really, really challenging program to get through as well, right? So how do you balance launching a program and having individuals pay for it, and then knowing that it needs to be, uh, tough enough? To create a, a high quality individual, but also not fail everyone like that.

[00:35:51] Sounds like a really challenging balance.

[00:35:53]Max Simon: It’s really emotional. I mean, I’ll tell you still to this day, you know, we run these events every month and, and right now, [00:36:00] Still a third of the people fail every month. Um, and, and it’s, it’s heartbreaking and it leads to a ton of emotion. But again, you know, you, there’s a, um, I’ve been building education programs long enough to know a few things.

[00:36:13] You know, one is, um, it’s all about the vision of what you’re trying to do. And the vision of Gja is that we’re still certifying people in a hundred years. That was. That was the, the vision that we created, that no matter what happens to the rest of the business, you know, we want GGI to be still certifying professionals in a hundred years.

[00:36:33] And, and because of that long term thinking, you really start to build foundational things with a lot of scrutiny. You know, so you do less, but you do those things really, really accurately and really, really well. And so, you know, we’ve communicated to all the Gja students, like, you know, we’re building this to be.

[00:36:52] There, there’s, this is a no-bullshit examination process. You know, you’re not gonna just show up and pass. You have to study and [00:37:00] you have to learn and, and you have to show up prepared. And then we hold to that, you know, we’ve got a nice tight criteria for the exam where you, you know, the, the multiple choice part of it.

[00:37:11] You can only miss 10, 10 out of the hundred. The service exam you have, you have to hit all the service points that we’ve mapped out in the GIA protocols. And if you don’t hit all those, All of ’em. You fail the service. and then you have to do this assessment exam where you fall with, you have to fall within a one point radius of the assessment on, on, you know, either side.

[00:37:32] So you know, if you judge it a 6.5, it has to either be a 5.5 or a 7.5, you know, within that, that range basically to pass. So we defined all the criteria and we’ve put people through it. And in the beginning lots of people were failing and it was terribly painful. Um, but we had to. You know, acknowledge this is the process of building this a hundred year thing.

[00:37:54] And now we’ve gotten better and better at study materials and their study groups and study guides and all this stuff. Um, [00:38:00] it’s on now one in three, you know, a third are failing instead of half, which is better. But it’s maintaining the integrity of the program and it’s making people really, really earn it.

[00:38:09] And thus, when you do earn it, it gains a certain level of respect in the industry. You have to earn it. Um, and. So that’s how we’ve kind of tackled it. It’s not perfect yet, and it’s still very emotional and you know, you wouldn’t believe how upset people get when they fail, but, We’ll keep going. ,

[00:38:28]Bryan Fields: that has to be such a delicate balance for you as well, right?

[00:38:30] Because you want to see the course succeed, but you also have to ensure that it has some stability and some credentials, because if every single person passed, it wouldn’t really have as much value to it because they’re integrity. Yeah. Everyone would be like, Well, you know, I could just fill out the paperwork and get it also.

[00:38:44] But the fact that people fail and honestly, probably the more, the better I is from an integrity standpoint of like the, the, the actual fight of getting through it and the studying and the showing up and the putting the effort in. Kind of allows for that to kind of be put on that pedestal, like probably the industry [00:39:00] needs.

[00:39:00] So I mean that, that has to be an incredible challenge. I guess my next question would be, do you foresee something like that being at like consumption lounge, Like having someone like that being stationed there to come around and make a recommendation based on the personal’s individual needs of recommendations.

[00:39:13]Max Simon: Yeah. Um, and you know, I just, I’ll just say too, I, I got certified in May and, and Did you pass

[00:39:19]Bryan Fields: Congratulations, by the way, .

[00:39:23]Max Simon: I was thinking about, you know, it was like my greatest fear of how tremendously embarrassing it would be if like the person that created the program couldn’t make it through the exams.

[00:39:31] Um, unfortunately I did pass, but I’ll tell you, it, it is one of the most nerve-wracking damn things you’ve ever done. And, and it’s such a funny. You know, there’s such polarity in it because like here you are, you’re literally, you’re literally smoking weed for your. Right. I mean the, the, the, the thought process of it is so funny to me to think about you’re smoking weed for an exam and you’re just trying your best to like break it all apart.

[00:39:56] And where everybody fails is in the flavor and Roma part of it [00:40:00] because it’s up to your palette and it’s up to the consensus mechanism that happened from the people judging the, the process. So anyways, the point is just, it’s, it’s scary and it’s difficult and you’re nerve-wracking, but the people that go through it and earn it, Most of them would tell us it’s literally the highlight of their lives.

[00:40:17] you know, they really feel like it’s one of the greatest accomplishments of their lives getting through the program. Um, and so, and then when you fail, it’s like utterly heartbreaking. And just the emotion is so much, there’s such big emotions that come from it. But again, you know, We’ve got our vision.

[00:40:34] This is this, this should be here in a hundred years, still training people to be masters of cannabis service and playing that level of role in the industry. Um, and to answer your question, you know, that was the original vision, is that we should have a GGE in every retail shop, in every consumption lounge.

[00:40:52] That that was, you know, that was the, the tactical goal is we wanna, we want a gaja and every retail shop and every consumption lounge, because [00:41:00] they’re the ones trained to be masters of cannabis service. So where does that service take place? Takes place in retail and takes place in consumption lounges.

[00:41:07] We’re, we’re, um, you know, we’re far away from being there. We’re far, far away from being there, but that’s the beauty of a hundred year vision. You know, you kind of just keep, keep working on it.

[00:41:18]Bryan Fields: It has to be a fun team building effort, right? People come to the campus, how long are they there for?

[00:41:22]Max Simon: Two days, two full days.

[00:41:24] Um, and it’s, they’re packed. You start at nine and oftentimes they’ll go till like 10 o’clock at night, just geeking out. I mean, it’s like the geekiest cannabis thing you’ve ever done. You’re like opening it up and you’re looking at it through the jewelers loop and you’re smelling and you’re picking out the aromas.

[00:41:40] But, but to people like me who love cannabis, who love everything about cannabis, It’s, it’s the thrill of a lifetime because you really, And the thing that’s so cool for me is, and this was the thesis of the program, is once you go through it, you can smell something and you can tell people the quality of that.

[00:41:59] You can [00:42:00] tell people the direction of what the effect profile will be. You can tell people how much they should consume of it based upon the, the properties of it to get the ideal effect. You can get really sophisticated and accurate with how you provide that level of guidance to people. And it’s cool that it works, you know?

[00:42:19] I mean, at the end of the day, that’s the point, is that that people become real true masters of cannabis service. And that’s why those roles are now being, um, kind of embraced in the industry, is they’re, they’re playing that manager role or the menu curation role or. They’re, they’re taking on the role of marketing lead because they understand the nuances of how to communicate and differentiate the product.

[00:42:38] So we’re seeing this amazing, amazing followthrough of people that are getting certified and then using that to leverage that in, in their, in their careers.

[00:42:49]Bryan Fields: What, do you guys have

[00:42:50]Kellan Finney: any, uh, individuals that attend the program that disagree with some of the content that’s being being taught? Good question.

[00:42:56]Max Simon: We get arguments all the time just [00:43:00] about the assessment. Um, It’s really the assessment accuracy of the exams. That’s it. That’s it. I is, is where people will say, you know, , I judged this, this way and you guys judged it this way, and they’ll, you know, well, the people will fight tooth and nail about those different quality assessment things.

[00:43:21] And it’s really tricky. I mean, you know, it’s really a tricky thing because. Although the instructors are truly the most experienced cannabis people pro on earth, I mean, there’s not a, a large group of people that have been doing this for 10, 20 years in the legacy space or in Prop 2 15 environment in California.

[00:43:43] And then have also transitioned to being such major players in legal space. Because that’s the thing, it’s, it’s, you have to hold both things in cannabis. You have to hold the love, the culture and the legacy and all that stuff. And the fact that we’re in a newly regulated legal market that’s a [00:44:00] totally different environment.

[00:44:01] So, So these 18 people are, all Coming from that legacy background, but participating in this space. And you know, it’s like swami chaitanya is one of the judges who’s been judging the Emerald Cup for 18 years and he’s the one doing the assessments. So like, are you gonna fine? You can challenge swami’s assessments, you can, but like, who’s more qualified than him?

[00:44:22] You know what I mean? Like there’s a certain point where you just gotta say like, these are the people that know their shit. Um, So, you know, we, we kind of try our best to just like, let the reality of the program speak for itself. But yeah, people argue about the assessment criteria all the time.

[00:44:37]Bryan Fields: That’s a good question though, Calvin ,

[00:44:40]Kellan Finney: what is one

[00:44:40]Bryan Fields: factor statistic about creating an educational ecosystem that would shock the cannabis

[00:44:45]Max Simon: industry?

[00:44:47] That it’s so freaking difficult and it takes so much time to get the consensus of what’s really supposed to be included. Um, you know, the, the thing that’s fascinating is cannabis is [00:45:00] a, an industry full of people with huge egos that have no right to have those egos. Um, That, that’s it. They don’t, they don’t have the right, And, and quite frankly, the higher up you go from people that, that have been in the space, the, the more they know, they don’t, they don’t know everything.

[00:45:15] But you have this enormous flood of people coming in that come from other sectors or come from other industries and they, they just, they think they know what good education looks like. They think they know what should go in the program. I think they, but the truth is they don’t know . And it takes a really long time, a really long time to kind of develop these programs.

[00:45:34] So, I guess yeah, that’s, that’s the the point. It just takes forever to do these, deal with

[00:45:39]Bryan Fields: the right way. 20 years from now, we will look back and say, I can’t believe we did that. That is barbaric. Why did we do that in the cannabis industry? What is that?

[00:45:49]Max Simon: Oh, it’s cannabis only being sold in this ultra restricted, ultra limited way.

[00:45:55] You know, I mean, cannabis won’t stay there forever. Um, cuz it [00:46:00] doesn’t deserve to be isolated in this, you know, iron cage of only limited to this thing. Like, we don’t do that to. Pretty much anything. I mean, I guess there’s some things we do, but, um, so can, yeah. Cannabis will be sold everywhere. Cannabis will be sold and consumed everywhere.

[00:46:15] And we’ll look back and go, Why? Why were we so afraid of this thing? That’s so stupid. .

[00:46:20]Bryan Fields: Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass on to the next generation, what would it be?

[00:46:32]Max Simon: It’s that, um, building resilience. Is an amazingly valuable and important skill and in certain places it’s the most important thing you need to cultivate to succeed and, and I think that’s just what cannabis has taught me is just there you will in this space. Get nos for many months, sometimes in the beginning, [00:47:00] doesn’t really matter what it is.

[00:47:01] Going to schools, you know, it took us a year and a half to get a, a payment provider to accept us to offer financing for our students. You know, we just signed a text messaging service that took us five months to find because we were told no by 25 people, you know, and, and. There’s, there’s, there’s beauty in the nose.

[00:47:23] There’s beauty in, in the rejections because if you can just say, Okay, no problem, and then keep working on it and keep trusting that you’ll find a solution. You learn that, you do, you learn that you do find those solutions and you do find workarounds and you can make it through. I have this, um, that saying that, that, um, success is inevit, uh, no, um, how do I say it?

[00:47:45] That, That, um, everyone can succeed at everything. It’s just that everybody gives up too soon. That’s how I say it. Everybody can succeed at anything. It’s just that everybody gives up too soon. And, and that’s the lesson of the cannabis industry is that we’re still dealing with [00:48:00] tremendous challenges and things, but we’re not giving up and thus we’re succeeding.

[00:48:03] We’re continuing to drive things forward. So I really feel resilience is the name of the game, especially in this sector. ,

[00:48:10]Bryan Fields: that was awesome. I love that. Appreciate you sharing that. All right. Prediction and. education can change stigma. Max, what specific part of education can help with the normalization for the mainstream, for the cannabis

[00:48:23]Max Simon: industry?

[00:48:26] Oh gosh. Well, I think it’s important for people to understand the endocannabinoid system for the simple fact that the biggest public narrative around cannabis is, um, you know, I hope it’s not too bad for. Basically, right. I hope this isn’t, I will tolerate this. The public, you know, the public policy narrative, a lot of these kind of mainstream things, it’s like, well, I guess this is something to tolerate.

[00:48:50] But the, the endocannabinoid system and all the science around it and how it works, demonstrates that, that actually the exact opposite is the truth. That cannabis is [00:49:00] a life saving, life giving supplement that feeds. Our system in a way that literally nothing else on planet Earth can do. And so we need to help people understand, it’s not that this is not bad for you, it’s that that done consciously and, and in the right way.

[00:49:19] This is good for you . And that that’s a, a, you know, a message that is definitely not well received currently because people are still just trying to get used to tolerating this as an alcohol substitute, you know? And. It’s a shame. I think that’s a shame. Kelly,

[00:49:37]Bryan Fields: I’m

[00:49:37]Kellan Finney: gonna piggyback on what Max said, and I think that, uh, once the endocannabinoid system is actually taught in medical school, I think that is gonna be a big one, right?

[00:49:45] Cause I, I’m just gonna rest my case there. I think we have talked about it enough on the show, but, uh, I think once it gets taught in medical schools and doctors start to learn, As part of their degrees. Then as we become standard knowledge, how all the [00:50:00] cannabinoids interact with the human body from a medicinal standpoint will become more public and it’ll just help provide comfort for everyone who’s scared of the plant because they’re just scared cuz they don’t

[00:50:09]Max Simon: know.

[00:50:10] Yeah. And you know, I mean I’ve been using cannabis a long time and, and it wasn’t until green flour that I started to realize. This is my medicine and I’m gonna use it actually in the same way I use all my medicines. My green drinks is, I take it the same dose, at the same times, in the same measured ways, and I do it every single day.

[00:50:31] And, and it, it is my. It is the reason I’ve gotten my ADHD under control. It’s, it’s, it’s so tied to a direct benefit to me personally. And so I think, you know, when you really start to look at it, you realize that lots of us individuals are actually still carrying stigma. We’re, we’re still a little like we do it, but we’re a little concerned about it, or we consume cannabis, but we feel a little embarrassed by it.

[00:50:55] Or we kind of just think about. We’re getting high and, and so be it. Not [00:51:00] necessarily looking at it from a medicinal wellness standpoint. And I think personally going through this journey of being educated and then realizing I was holding so much stigma around this and dropping that to be able to do this with such consistency, I, you know, I take my cannabis twice a day, every same time, every day.

[00:51:16] And measur measured doses. And that’s been life changing for me. Absolutely. Utterly life changing. But to have somebody like me who’s been consuming for so. Is in the industry and then still needs to go through this shedding layer, this like stigma dropping layer, this shame dropping layer to get to a place where I’m like, Yeah, I’m using this every day cause this is good for me.

[00:51:36] You know, this is a benefit to my life. Take taken a long time. So we’re, we’re, we got some work to do.

[00:51:41]Bryan Fields: I, I think it’s also important to remember that it’s not one size fits all, right? Like the same product you take for certain situations is not the same one you take for a relaxer to help you sleep. And I think that’s the massive take home message that I really want people to realize is that there’s different products for different situations and it’s not going to be the first product you buy is gonna be the best one for you.

[00:51:58] It’s going to take a guest test [00:52:00] and revise and starts with understanding you know, what your body likes and educating yourself on the differences of the.

[00:52:06]Max Simon: I always say that if, um, if cannabis history was wiped away, right? All this last 80 years of stigma and war on drugs and all this other stuff, and, and then today, you know, some scientists walked in and discovered this plant and then brought it to the lab and started researching it, it would be celebrated as the single greatest medical discovery of the 21st century that it would be.

[00:52:33] like Wait. Wait Whoa, whoa. So you’re telling me this plant helps me sleep, helps me relax, helps me be creative, helps me connect to spirituality, can, can have measurable effects on cancer, can have measurable effects on depression, measurable effects on anxiety. You know, measurable effects on spasticity, measurable effects on epilepsy.

[00:52:50] I mean, you really start to go down to it. You realize it’s, it’s the most, you know, it’s one of the most incredible plants that exists on planet Earth. [00:53:00] It’s just that we’ve got this huge backlog of nonsense shadowing and coloring it. But you know, like all of us, we’re doing our piece stigma’s going away.

[00:53:09] People will realize the versatility of what this plant can offer humanity is immense. Pretty incredible

[00:53:16]Bryan Fields: hearing you lay it out like that. So Max, for our listeners, they want to get in touch, they wanna start training themselves, and they’re probably interested in the Grier program. Where can they find ya?

[00:53:25]Max Simon: So everything’s at green-flower.com, or you can just Google Green Flower or gogi. Um, you know, the, the, the new GFI programs, the dispensary, associate cultivation technician and manufacturing agent are come coming live in November, and GOGI is opening for our 2023 class in November. So it’s good, good time to be here and uh, yeah.

[00:53:47] Go check it out now is if history repeats itself, Gia won’t, won’t be available for too long until next year and, uh, the GFI programs will, will be available. Awesome.

[00:53:56]Bryan Fields: We will link ’em up in the show notes. Thanks for taking the time. This was fun.

[00:53:59]Max Simon: Yeah, thank you. This was great [00:54:00] guys. Thanks so much.

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