Author: Joy

Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.

Diversification of revenue streams and non-correlated assets is beneficial in business. Diversification is even more critical in industries dealing with massive pricing volatility, political unknowns (both positive and negative), and independent markets state by state. Forecasting in cannabis is less about hitting a specific target (bullseye) and more about moving in an actual direction: N, E, S, W.

Imagine you have a compass where all you know is the direction of a significant point. That’s how most operators assume current headwinds.

Building a stable business that isn’t subject to these massive unknowns can be worrisome for operators and investors. One option for these cannabis companies seeking stability is to diversify outside of traditional cannabis.

How far outside traditional cannabis should they diversify, and what is most beneficial for business stability? Well, that depends on your team’s business and, most importantly, your team’s core competencies. A diversification strategy gaining adoption is migrating parts of cannabis companies into traditional agriculture products.

Aurora, one of the original sizable Canadian LPs, is more known for burning cash, but they have now taken this approach to further improve business.

According to MJBIZDaily, “Aurora Cannabis buys profitable vegetable firm for CA$45M, sells Sky greenhouse.”The most telling quote: “The ability to get access to cash flow today is going to be really important for a competitive position going forward to be sustainable long-term,” Squires told MJBizDaily in an interview.

Glass House Farms is another example of a company adapting its business for outside revenue streams. Their website shows Glass House Farm’s total operating greenhouse space to be more than 500,000 square feet—or almost ten football fields.

This “unicorn greenhouse” is a perfect example of economies of scale.

A greenhouse of this magnitude could potentially serve the entire California cannabis market.

Graham Farrar, President of Glass House Farms, was on our podcast, The Dime, where he shared how they are using the greenhouse to diversify today.

Glass House Farms operates as the landlord. The greenhouse has a sublease where another company grows tomatoes and cucumbers. Glass House brings in revenue from operations outside of cannabis and keeps the asset to provide less variability in its efforts.

Operating in the cannabis industry is expensive, and it is slow to open new markets. While NY continues to struggle to open its market, NJ also had delays that caused capital constraints; ask Jason Wild, Chairman of Terrascend. His team had sunk enormous capital in the NJ market years before the market turned on. These capital investments are costly for companies, shareholders, and all parties involved. With access to capital being expensive and challenging to come by, the decision to invest years ahead of the market opening is restrictive for other operational activities.

Even more challenging for cannabis operators is the risk of the unknown future. Wholesale prices are fluctuating and trending the wrong way. Safe Banking, which many had hoped to get active, could finally potentially provide an influx of investment capital into public markets but has been meddling in nowhere land. Will you wake up and realize that gas stations can sell medical cannabis in 2022?

These unknowns are what separate cannabis from traditional industries and cause those involved to operate with completely unknown variables. Right now, a majority of the cannabis industry is trying to survive. Their cash flow is their oxygen. Cannabis companies need diversification to ensure the safety of their businesses, both short- and long-term.

These types of adjustments in thought allow companies to bring in stable revenue outside of cannabis is exceptionally beneficial. 

Subleasing out part of their facility also gives them the flexibility to scale over time. If and when demand and need to grow other cannabis continues, Glass House can adjust their facility, not renew their lease with their tenant and scale their grow room.

Smart operators will be prudent with shareholder capital and a diversified revenue stream with the stability to navigate the complete unknown.

“Risk diversification matters not just as a defensive measure, but it also maximizes returns because we expose ourselves to all the opportunities out there.” —Peter Bernstein

Diversifying your business is always the best move.

A positive cash-flowing business is a lifeline for a company burning cash every month. Will Aurora fully pivot their business? Unlikely. But in the short term, this is about staying afloat and, more importantly, surviving.

Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.

Circle K, the global convenience store, has signed a deal with GTI to sell licensed cannabis in Florida beginning next year. This news follows the Minnesota clarification over hemp-derived THC. MN has opened up the floodgates of having THC beverages sold in bars and supermarkets.

The cannabis industry continues to play out exactly as everyone thought. Cannabis is sold in traditional retail in 2022 precisely as many in the industry had in mind.

Bryan Fields, Eighth Revolution

Editors’ Note: This is an excerpt from our Monthly Playbook. If you would like to read the full monthly playbook and join the thousands of others you can sign up below.

Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

This week we are joined by Shaleen Title , Founder of Parabola Center to discuss:

• Safe Banking
• Preventing Monopolies
• Building an Equitable Industry
• Is Big Tobacco a threat to Cannabis?

Shaleen Title is an Indian-American attorney and longtime drug policy activist who has been writing, passing, and implementing equitable cannabis laws for over 20 years. She is a former top regulator for the state of Massachusetts, where she served as commissioner of the Cannabis Control Commission from 2017 to 2020. She is the author of “Fair and Square: How to Effectively Incorporate Social Equity Into Cannabis Laws and Regulations” and “Bigger is Not Better: Preventing Monopolies in the National Cannabis Market.”

Parabola Center is a nonprofit think tank of legal professionals and drug policy experts coming together to protect people, not corporations. Our mission is to provide everyone with access and expertise to participate in the drug policy arena.

https://www.shaleentitle.com/
https://www.parabolacenter.com/
https://twitter.com/parabolacenter
https://twitter.com/shaleentitle

#Cannabis  #Cannabiscommunity #tobacco

At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev) we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.

8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain

The Dime is a top 50 Cannabis Podcast 

Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney

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[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s

[00:00:02] up guys. Welcome back to an episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always as ke Finnie and this week, we’ve got a very special guest Shalene title co-founder of Powerball center Shalene. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing today?

[00:00:14]Shaleen Title: I’m good. Thank you for having me

[00:00:15]Bryan Fields: on excited to dive in Cowan.

[00:00:17] How are you

[00:00:17]Kellan Finney: doing? I’m doing really good, really excited to talk about law and regulations around the cannabis industry. How are you,

[00:00:23]Bryan Fields: Brian? I’m excited. We’ve got a lot of topics to hit today with Shalene, but I guess for the record, Shalene your location,

[00:00:31]Shaleen Title: uh, north of Boston in Massachusetts.

[00:00:33]Bryan Fields: So let the record say another east coaster as the wave continues.

[00:00:37] So Chalene for our listeners that I’m familiarly brought you. Can you give a little background about.

[00:00:44]Shaleen Title: Sure. Um, so I’m a very long time cannabis activist. I got started in college a little over 20 years ago, working on legalization. And, uh, it was obviously very different back then. Um, but throughout the past 20 [00:01:00] years, Um, I’ve done a lot of advocacy work.

[00:01:03] I was lucky to work on the first legalization initiative in Colorado and some failed ones before that. Um, I was an entrepreneur starting the first recruiting firm, uh, for diversity and inclusion in cannabis in 2013. Um, I practiced law, uh, representing small cannabis businesses. . And then while I was doing that, I was invited to apply to be a regulator in Massachusetts in 2017.

[00:01:34] So I did that for three years and then when I left, um, I thought it was really important to have a voice representing small and minority own businesses in particular at the federal level. So I started a think tank called parabola center. We are not funded by, um, big marijuana money or any type of, um, big corporate money, because we thought it [00:02:00] was really important to have an organization in that space.

[00:02:03] So that’s what I do now.

[00:02:04]Bryan Fields: I’m glad you brought that. I know that’s always a big sticking point and then announcing that is, is really critical. So I have people aware, but I wanna start kind of earlier on in your career, was cannabis a big part of your life? Like how did you migrate into the space? Was it something you always thought you, you would enter.

[00:02:19]Shaleen Title: you know, um, it was just one of those things in college where like you learn about different, uh, things that you, you may not have been aware of. And it was very clear that the cannabis laws were unfair. I liked to use cannabis. I especially liked to use it around then. And it seemed like everybody around me was, um, Very much in favor of legalizing regardless of their politics or their party.

[00:02:47] And so this has been kind of a recurring theme in my career. Um, it just kind of felt like everybody was saying, wow, somebody should do something about this so I thought, okay, why don’t I, and that’s [00:03:00] kind of how I got started.

[00:03:01]Kellan Finney: Did, uh, cannabis have any influence on you deciding to go to law school? Or was it kind of like you went to law school and you still, um, were just noticing these cannabis laws were unfair and then you just kind of merged the two

[00:03:14]Shaleen Title: interests.

[00:03:15] Oh a hundred percent. That was the reason why I went to law school. Um, I was really involved as a student. Yeah. Around that time, students for sensible drug policy was a pretty influential organization. It still is. And so, um, there were students that were passing medical cannabis laws, uh, really as the leaders, they were writing them, they were organizing patients.

[00:03:38] And so I got to see that and be involved in it. And it was a really cool way. Understand that young people can make change, you know, on their own. You don’t really need . You don’t really need anything else. Except a lot of motivated people. What was the Illinois’s

[00:03:55]Kellan Finney: medical market, like back in the day, when, when you first got involved in the industry?

[00:03:59]Shaleen Title:[00:04:00] Um, so I was a part of Illinois normal and, uh, my very first time lobbying was in Illinois. And that was the time when, um, I would say legislators were not really ready to hear it. But we were seeing at that time, this was the early two thousands. We were seeing ballot initiatives passing in other places.

[00:04:22] Um, I remember Rhode Island really specifically, uh, but Illinois ended up being the first state of course, to pass by legislation rather than by ballot initiative. Um, and that happened about 10 years after I started, um, which has been another recurring theme in my career is planting seeds. And then seeing them pay off several years later.

[00:04:43]Bryan Fields: Yeah, that’s the best way I love that. You said that they weren’t ready to hear it. So I guess my, my follow up question is, are, are they ready to hear it now?

[00:04:50]Shaleen Title: Oh, more than ready. I mean, I think the Illinois legislators have done a great job, you know, in the circumstances being the first to do it, they have gone back and, and tweaked [00:05:00] the law several times.

[00:05:01] Um, and I think in general, legislators are very open to hearing about cannabis right now, and very interested in hearing about it from a social justice perspective in

[00:05:11]Bryan Fields: part. Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up. So let’s stay with Paraba center and the value it brings. I know you said it’s not funded by big cannabis business.

[00:05:18] Who, who like, who is the, the intention of the organization for, and who does it help?

[00:05:24]Shaleen Title: So it’s a nonprofit 5 0 1 3 organization, 5 0 1 C3 organization. And it is intended to help the population that really every cannabis policy organization says it wants to help, which is what I would describe as historically excluded communities.

[00:05:43] So certainly small businesses, certainly, um, minority owned. Those that are owned by communities that have been disproportionately harmed by. Prohibition, um, farmers, veterans, and then women, uh, and people who have [00:06:00] otherwise been excluded, um, as entrepreneurs. And the reason I mention all of these groups is because I think that they are very much, um, their needs are often very much in contrast to what big companies need.

[00:06:13] Uh, not always, but often. And so when you. Organizations that are funded by big corporations. They’re not able to take those bold transformative positions that an organization like parabola center. Can,

[00:06:28]Bryan Fields: can you describe some of those positions that your team takes in order to, to advocate, but on behalf of your clients,

[00:06:35]Shaleen Title: Yeah, so they’re not our clients, um, because we’re, we’re technically a charity, but as a think tank, um, I would give you one short term and one long term example. So the short term example is the safe banking act. Um, we’ve done a lot of work to try to make sure that if the safe banking act is going to pass that, uh, excuse me.

[00:06:57] It, it. Strong [00:07:00] provisions that will make sure that these historically excluded businesses are actually able to get banking if they’re not able to now, or at least to send us in that direction. So we’ve done a lot of specific work on that. And then long term we’re very interested in anti monopoly work. In other words, we don’t want to.

[00:07:17] See, the cannabis industry become like so many others where three to five companies control, you know, the vast majority of the market and treat their workers badly, treat their consumers badly and kind of, you know, do whatever they want because they have a monopoly or monopoly. So we’ve done a lot of work on federal legislation that would avoid that result.

[00:07:40] Is there,

[00:07:40]Kellan Finney: um, a way that safe banking can be drafted so that it, it helps prevent

[00:07:45]Bryan Fields: monopolies?

[00:07:48]Shaleen Title: Ooh, that’s an interesting question. Um, I think the safe banking act is very narrow. And so I don’t think that we could prevent monopolies per se, [00:08:00] but we could certainly amend it so that it’s helping small businesses, at least as much as it’s helping big businesses.

[00:08:08] And I think that’s what, um, the amendments that we’ve put forth, uh, would do. And. Uh, suggest if people wanna see more specifics, the cannabis regulators of color coalition, which I’m a founding member of, uh, just put out a panel and a paper going through the specific amendments and parabola center provided legal and technical assistance on the paper.

[00:08:31] That’s the kind of thing that we can do, cause we’re not gonna know about every single subject, right? Like I’m not a banking expert, but what we can do is help, um, As a think tank to make sure that there’s someone there who’s not a big company lobbyist, that’s actually representing what the people want, uh, on a given situation.

[00:08:51] And then do the legal research, do the model, bill drafting and try and make sure most importantly, that the public has access to those tools and can advocate for [00:09:00] them as well. The.

[00:09:01]Bryan Fields: Shalene. It’s so important that you say those things because we’ve had voices in the community that make mention that, you know, how am I supposed to compete with these bigger businesses, these big MSOs and these other people lobby me again.

[00:09:11] So just expanding on that Shalene, you know, what is our current status today for safe banking? And what do you think is needed to get over the line so that it can be passed on both parties?

[00:09:23]Shaleen Title: Uh, so I’m, I’m not a politician or a lobbyist, you know, so I’m not necessarily the expert on that, but I will say that.

[00:09:31] I do feel much more optimistic than I have the past six or seven times that this bill, you know, has been passed by one chamber and failed because I’ve been very consistently calling for amendments for at least a year. As soon as I sat down and, and read the bill. When my term, as a state regulator ended, I realized there were a lot of problems with safe banking and raised them.

[00:09:56] And. To quote myself, people weren’t ready to hear it [00:10:00] at that time. But this year, I think there’s just been a change among, um, both the public and legislators and their staff where they really wanna get this done. And they want to make this a bill that is equitable and where. The talking points about the bill, right?

[00:10:18] That it would improve access to banking and financial services for small businesses, you know, improve public safety, uh, to make the bill actually do that. And so there have been very robust conversations about amendments. Um, I do think there’s openness to amend the bill and. A lot of people ask me when they look at our amendments.

[00:10:39] You know, what about Republicans? I don’t think that Republicans are going to stop this bill from passing, just because it has some provisions in it that are going to benefit small businesses. I think that if Republicans support the safe banking act, they’re going to continue to support it with equitable amendment.

[00:10:59] As well, [00:11:00] the most important thing right now in my mind is if you are part of these populations that are supposedly the beneficiaries of this bill, that you should be paying attention and looking at the amendments, um, and certainly talking to your, to your representatives in Congress about it.

[00:11:17]Bryan Fields: Do you think you could

[00:11:17]Kellan Finney: elaborate, um, for some of our listeners on why safe banking is gonna provide kind of a, a more level playing field for small businesses versus the, the larger entities.

[00:11:29]Shaleen Title: Well, to be clear as written, I don’t think it would do that. I totally oppose safe banking in its current form. Um, because it to, to put it succinctly, it gives banks a safe Harbor and then leaves it completely up to banks who they’re going to work with and how, and the banking and financial services industry does not have.

[00:11:54] Reputation or data showing that it has been equitable or fair that has to be [00:12:00] done through regulation. And so that’s why we have these amendments

[00:12:04]Bryan Fields: yeah. Asking them to go against their norm would seem to be kind of counterintuitive to helping. All right. If we, if we say this is supposed to help someone, then we should actually make sure that it does help them.

[00:12:14] Exactly. So let’s, let’s continue on with social equity, who is building from a statewide perspective, who is building a social equity program the right way. And who do you think needs to.

[00:12:25]Shaleen Title: Ooh. Um, everybody needs to improve myself included. I think I, I think New York is going to do a good job, um, on paper.

[00:12:37] It’s a very good program that has. Um, really, uh, taken into account what we have done wrong in other states. So Massachusetts was the first state to have a statewide social equity program. And, um, I wrote a whole paper on. How I recommend incorporating social equity into [00:13:00] legalization based on our experience.

[00:13:02] But I would say the biggest lesson is that we tried to build a social equity program, get it off the ground and do outreach at the same time that we let the bigger companies just, um, start immediately because we wanted to be fair and we wanted to be. Quick. Um, but what happened was, um, just the difference between those two groups was so vast that it really made it difficult for those smaller businesses to compete.

[00:13:32] And eventually I think we recovered from that, but it was a hard lesson and it took years. And so I think that whereas many other states have just kind of copy and pasted that same model. Um, and a lot of bills that are being funded by larger organizations would even do worse than, um, what I’ve described in Massachusetts.

[00:13:54] Uh, New York has. Done the opposite. Um, they really have focused [00:14:00] on not only making sure that small businesses have the, um, resources that they need, but that they will be the ones to go first. Now, again, this is all on paper so once we see what plays out on the ground, it could go completely differently.

[00:14:17] Um, but I I’m very optimistic about it.

[00:14:19]Kellan Finney: Historically speaking, what has been the, the biggest challenge from taking the. The idea on paper in theory, and actually implementing it, um, on the streets.

[00:14:31]Shaleen Title: Um, the timing is a huge one, right? So, so making sure that you are as much. Crap as regulators get for taking time that they’re taking their time and making sure that, um, they’re not letting the market get dominated, uh, in the meantime.

[00:14:49] And then also, um, you have to do a lot to gain some trust, right? Because if you go into a community that has been disproportionately harmed by prohibition, and you’re like, [00:15:00] Hey, I’m the government. I know you’ve been completely oppressed by us in the past. And you have a conviction and it’s ruined your life and your parents’ lives and your kids’ life.

[00:15:07] But now we wanna. Um, they’re not immediately going to be excited by that this time is different. It’s different. It’s different. Trust me, trust me. Right. So I think it takes a lot of investment. It takes a lot of coalition building a lot of outreach. Um, and that’s something that regulators have to, to take very seriously.

[00:15:26] And again, invest in, start with

[00:15:29]Bryan Fields: a system that is fair and open competition to begin with. Then move to add in benefits of social equity, is this order critical to success of a.

[00:15:39]Shaleen Title: That is a question of someone that has done their homework. Yes. . That is absolutely the most critical, critical part. And, and again, that’s what I learned in Massachusetts.

[00:15:48] Right. If I could go back and do it again, I would think a lot more about order of operations. Why

[00:15:54]Bryan Fields: is it

[00:15:55]Shaleen Title: so critical? Well, because it’s, it’s, uh, [00:16:00] a lot of people say that social equity programs set people up to fail. Um, you know, and someone who works on these programs, like that’s really painful to hear. Um, but I understand why people say that because if they are watching other companies get a first mover advantage, you know, get cut, get consumers right away.

[00:16:21] Um, Customers coming to their store, even though they’ve done nothing. Right. You know, they just happen to be in the state and open, and that’s really all they have to offer. They’ve got bad quality products at high prices, you know, and you’re watching that. And you’re not even, um, able to take advantage of the program yet because it’s just being built.

[00:16:41] Um, I can understand why you would feel like it’s, it’s setting you up to fail. So that’s something for us to, to learn. from

[00:16:50]Bryan Fields: seen that in Massachusetts cannabis delivery companies need two drivers. Why do they need two, two people in the.

[00:16:59]Shaleen Title: Yeah, they [00:17:00] don’t the answer to that is they don’t uh, I had a really tough time as a regulator.

[00:17:05] Um, if you go back and watch the meetings, um, you’ll like, see my blood pressure going up and like my veins pumping outta my head, cuz there’s some really ridiculous regulations. Um, the worst one is actually that, uh, Delivery operators actually need to wear a body camera when they make the delivery, um, which is such an invasion of privacy in my mind.

[00:17:29] Um, but the reason that we have all of these regulations is because, uh, we had to make votes as a commission. And in order to get the majority of votes, we had to have these, um, regulations that would, I guess, assuage the concerns of. People who are focused on public health and public safety, but the good news is, um, I think the, the plan all along was that we could start with very strict regulations, see how it works.

[00:17:59] If there’s no [00:18:00] incidents, um, change them. It’s built that way. The regulators have terms, uh, all five of the original commissioners have now left. I was the only one who made it to the end of my term, in fact. And so you have now new commissioners who can talk to the businesses that are operating, um, understand their.

[00:18:21] Point of view, look at the data and then decide if they want to change regulations like this.

[00:18:27]Bryan Fields: Yeah. That’s gotta be a really challenging compromise. So is that a matter of ensuring the safety of the delivery, obviously that adds to the total cost and, and hinders the business. Plus if you’re a consumer and two people show up in a car, it’s, it’s kind of odd, right?

[00:18:40] If, if my Uber driver shows up and he is got a delivery for me, and he is got a friend in the front seat, This is, uh, a joy ride going wrong. So what, what is the, the point of the compromise? Like how, how does that work and what was one of the reasons why that happens?

[00:18:52]Shaleen Title: So their view, the, the majority that passes regulation, their view was that, um, it was simply a safety issue and that if you [00:19:00] have cars driving around, um, with cannabis, making deliveries, that they are a target for robberies.

[00:19:07] And so as a public safety measure, if you have two people in the car, one person can stay in the car while the other one does the delivery that

[00:19:14]Bryan Fields: makes. let’s talk about educating new states so that they can learn. What is the number one thing new states can do to set their market up for success and avoid prior state’s mistakes?

[00:19:26]Shaleen Title: Hmm. Well, It’s really a matter of education. It’s, it’s really understanding the details. Um, that’s definitely why we started the cannabis regulators of color coalition so that we could talk to each other and explain these things, you know, in small groups, because, uh, it’s almost like you have to do two things at the same time.

[00:19:47] One is communicating with the public at a big picture level, you know, and, and making them feel calm and, and heard. But. That kind of talking points and messaging is not the actual work. The actual [00:20:00] work is, um, reading the other state’s regulations, looking at their data and then, um, you know, reflecting that in your own.

[00:20:08] And that takes a lot of time and effort and investment. And I think for the public that. Is in a new state, you have to be patient and yes, hold your regulators accountable, you know, ask them what they’re doing, make sure they’re doing this whole process in public, but also understand that it’s not going to happen overnight.

[00:20:26] And if you put too much pressure on them, uh, to do it quickly, then they will simply hand the market over to the larger operators, because that’s the only way to do it quickly. So

[00:20:36]Bryan Fields: St.

[00:20:37]Kellan Finney: Staying on a new state, um, with limited license or unlimited licenses, should they follow kind of a similar blueprint for implement implementing social equity in your opinion, Shalene?

[00:20:50]Shaleen Title: Um, I’m not a fan of limited licensing structures, um, or library, excuse me, one second. I’m not a fan of [00:21:00] limited licensing systems or lotterys um, I don’t think that they’re fair. I think they just create this like golden ticket system. That’s not good for, for anyone. And so instead, what I recommend is, um, have no limit on licenses in a, in a state or jurisdiction, but make sure that one entity or person can only hold so much of the market or only hold a certain number of license.

[00:21:25] That way you open up the, well, that way you open up the market to more people, more small businesses and make sure that if someone has the resources to get started early, um, they can, but once they have, for example, in Massachusetts three retail stores, um, they’re done, then you stop and you let other people get into the market.

[00:21:47]Bryan Fields: I, I think that’s so critical cuz we’ve had other conversations with larger companies and they discussed that transitioning into newer states that they would only enter in, in certain, uh, parts of the vertical because they knew if they, they came in [00:22:00] retail first, they’d be kind of tapped out in certain areas.

[00:22:02] And I thought that was so telling from a strategic standpoint of the, the fact that if you control too much of the market, how, how much you can dominate in a limited license

[00:22:10]Shaleen Title: state. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s why we see so much lobbying for limited license.

[00:22:18]Bryan Fields: Big tobacco and alcohol companies are making significant investments into cannabis and even large conglomerates are openly expressing interest into the industry.

[00:22:26] Left unchecked. The scramble from market share threatens to undermine public health and safety and UE, bold state level efforts to build an equitable cannabis marketplace. Why do you think left on check that, that this could. Were you quoting me there? I was quoting

[00:22:41]Shaleen Title: you there. I was like, yes. What a great question.

[00:22:44] And then realized you’re quoting. Okay. Um, why do I think that left unchecked? This is a problem. Yeah, because I think that we are set up to, um, we are set up [00:23:00] to create a monopoly unless we put specific guardrails in place to prevent a monopoly from happen. That sounds

[00:23:08]Bryan Fields: easier said than done. Right? I mean, I can’t imagine with all the shell structures that is currently set up that, that preventing a monopolies isn’t easily done.

[00:23:16] So what are steps that we can do today in order to prevent, let’s say five, 10 years from now, you know, company not having too, too much of a market

[00:23:23] share?

[00:23:25]Shaleen Title: Um, actually I think some parts are easy. I, I think that like, they’re sort of presented as, as difficult because. If we do them, , it’s gonna, it’s gonna hurt a lot of the companies that are like funding, legalization efforts and a lot profits.

[00:23:39] But for example, um, so the, the license, the, the limits I just described that we have in Massachusetts, where you can only have three of each type, uh, definitely enforcement takes a lot of investment and it also takes education to make sure that smaller businesses, um, understand that. [00:24:00] They should not agree to predatory relationships.

[00:24:03] Um, but that’s definitely something we could do nationally is put a limit on the number of licenses or the, the portion of the market that one entity can hold. We could also disqualify big tobacco because when you are in charge of, um, issuing a license to a cannabis business, typically you look at the people involved, you look at, um, as part of the application, you look at their criminal history and.

[00:24:29] Almost all, actually, all states have a process where if the criminal history makes you concerned that the person is not suitable to hold a cannabis license, you don’t grant them a license. It’s a, it’s a disqualification. And so we could do the same thing, um, with the same principles where if you are part of a tobacco company that is documented to have lied to the public, to have manipulated.

[00:24:55] Your product to have defrauded your customers. [00:25:00] And, um, as a result of all of that killed people, then you should not be allowed to enter the cannabis market

[00:25:10]Bryan Fields: challenge. Right. Sounds good. In theory, right? Yeah, I was, I was trying to think like, how like, is that something you think we can actually get forward and, and accomplish is that’s and I guess the second question, if, if proposed, do you think that’s something that could be accepted?

[00:25:26]Shaleen Title: Not only do I think that’s something that we could do and that would be accepted.

[00:25:30] I think it’s the only way that we are going to prevent domination by big tobacco, because they are certainly, um, openly making their moves now. I don’t think that they are very influential in, um, the political process, but so they are funding, um, cannabis events, they’re sponsoring, um, activists events.

[00:25:57] They are hiring influential cannabis, [00:26:00] activists, and leaders. And if they keep doing that unchecked, they are eventually going to be very influential in cannabis legalization. And when you. have Unlimited resources. There’s really not a lot that can be done to stop you. And so in my mind, um, the most important thing to prevent monopolization by big tobacco, which everybody should care about.

[00:26:24] Um, you know, if you’re a business that wants to work with other cannabis businesses, you don’t wanna see a monopoly. Um, if you’re a big cannabis business now, um, you will be dwarfed by big tobacco. Uh, there’s a lot of different people who should care about this. We should not. Um, legitimize big tobaccos participation in the industry.

[00:26:46] And we have to take that hard line now. And I say that again, as somebody who has been doing this for 20 years and can often see, um, what’s coming down the line a few years ahead. Um, I’m saying from that point of view, [00:27:00] that this is the most important thing to be paying attention to right now. What

[00:27:03]Bryan Fields: do we do

[00:27:03]Kellan Finney: with the companies that are already backed by big, big tobacco?

[00:27:07] Are they grandfathered in? How does that work?

[00:27:10]Shaleen Title: Well, um,

[00:27:13]Kellan Finney: you know, like Cronos is sitting on what a billion of tobacco money right now, and just in cash waiting to deploy it from a federal perspective. Um, is it something where now they’re not allowed to have licenses? I mean, I know they’ve already acquired, uh, brands that are operating in the us market, so it just becomes challenging, you know, Shalene, like how do we.

[00:27:34] Prevent them from being involved when they’re already kind of got their fingers in it. You know what I mean?

[00:27:39]Shaleen Title: Right. Well, I think that the investment so far is very small from what it would be if we don’t take these measures down the line. And so that’s why we have to stop, start now because federal legalization isn’t going to happen.

[00:27:52] Um, certainly this session and I don’t see it happening in the short term at all. And so it will take, uh, many years [00:28:00] to design. That system, it will take a lot of, um, unraveling of relationships. But again, this isn’t new marijuana regulation is new, but antitrust laws and anti monopoly laws are not new.

[00:28:17]Bryan Fields: For the everyday average consumer or operates in the industry, what can they look out for to see the signs of big tobacco making their way into cannabis?

[00:28:24] Is it the large investments like Kellen spoke about, or are there more under the radar techniques that they may be used that, you know, you can provide an example on that you’ve seen in the past. That could be an early indicator that this is happening sooner rather than later.

[00:28:38]Shaleen Title: Um, that’s a great question.

[00:28:39] Well, this is very, they’re very good at hiding their their steps. And so I think most people don’t even know about the big tobacco front organizations right now. I would say two things, actually three things. So one, if you’re a consumer, um, just pay attention to what you’re buying and where it’s coming from.

[00:28:59] That’s just a really [00:29:00] good practice in general, and it’s going to become more important in the, the coming. Um, you know, don’t rely on advertising to educate you second. Um, definitely follow parabola center. I think we’re the only organization that’s kind of got a watchdog role, uh, at the moment on, on those activities.

[00:29:18] And then third, if you call your federal representatives, they are going to care about this issue. I actually have a lot of legislators that I’ve talked to that couldn’t care less about cannabis. Definitely didn’t care about social justice. But then when I started talking about big tobacco, they were like, oh, Jewel big tobacco, Austria, what are they doing?

[00:29:39] And they really cared. Um, because for some reason, no. Well, I know why the reason is that they’ve done all of this harm to legislator’s constituents already. They care. And so that would be the third thing is just contact your legislator directly and tell them that you’re worried about. Big tobacco taking over cannabis.

[00:29:57] They probably haven’t heard that before. They’re [00:30:00] probably only hearing kind of the same story from cannabis businesses who can afford lobbyists. And so if they hear that for the first time from their constituents, it’s going to make a big impact.

[00:30:12]Bryan Fields: What is one rule or regulation you wish all states would adopt universally?

[00:30:18]Shaleen Title: Ooh. Um, I would like to hear your thoughts on that as well. Um, Well, the first one is just the, the limits on licenses, but I, I won’t belabor the point on that. I think universal labeling would be great. I think it’s kind of silly that we have so many different label requirements and I think a lot of them are not in line with.

[00:30:42] Um, best public health practices in terms of what consumers should be seeing. I think the Massachusetts labels, for example, really go overboard. They’re too long. The font is too small. You can’t find the information you’re looking for. And so if we really had, um, public health input into [00:31:00] one good label and it was consistent from state to state, that would do a lot of good for consumers.

[00:31:06] Yeah.

[00:31:07]Bryan Fields: I mean, that would make a massive difference. Right? It turns out if you go from New York to, to California, you shouldn’t have to be like, I don’t know what any of this information is. Uh, ke what do you think,

[00:31:15]Kellan Finney: uh, potency caps on flour? I think that the conversation is focused on potency right now when consumers make, uh, purchasing decisions.

[00:31:25] And I don’t think that’s the right metric, uh, to be making purchasing decisions. I mean, you go by. Edibles right. You get 10 edibles. All the edibles are fixed concentrations in each one. It’s dosed out. They figured it out with edibles, but in flour, I can go buy a gram of flour that tests at 30% or a gram flour that tests at 15%.

[00:31:47] Um, I just think that. Standardizing, those is gonna be the first step to like normalizing the industry. Right? Like I don’t go by Jack Daniels and it’s different [00:32:00] concentration every time, you know what I mean? So I think that that’s probably one, one thing that needs to happen from a, um, just kind of normalizing the industry across state lines, at least.

[00:32:09] What do you think.

[00:32:11]Bryan Fields: I think limited licenses, Shalene. I think we could keep killing this because it’s ridiculous. Right? This is the Willy Wonka golden ticket style where like, if you’ve got one of the, the assets inside, I mean, it is invaluable to opening up early in the market.

[00:32:23]Kellan Finney: I’m gonna take the other side real quick on this whole limited license conversation.

[00:32:27] Um, cuz I’ve operated in the unlimited license standpoint. And it’s an absolute nightmare, right? I worked in Washington and every company and their mother gets a license and you go into a store and it’s 7,000 different brands. It’s a straight dog fight. Right. And it says capitalistic it’s pure capitalism.

[00:32:52] Right? And you talk about like people playing dirty pool, the most dirty pool I’ve ever seen get played is in unlimited licensed [00:33:00] states. I mean, I, we have people up in Michigan that are talking about insane amounts of distillate from Canada being infused into the market. It creates a ton of challenges regulating the industry because now.

[00:33:12] This new entity in the government has to regulate 50,000 different companies that are all startups, right. Versus a limited license state And I know that it’s not like fair in terms of how limited license is limited license date are rolled out, but the other side of that coin, it does create a massive.

[00:33:31] Mess from a regulat regulation standpoint, right? Like Colorado, when they first rolled it out, we didn’t roll out unlimited licenses to get a license. It was 500 grand and all these things, and it does create that barrier to entry. But I think that the other side of the conversation isn’t addressed enough, right?

[00:33:47] Like it it’s a massive nightmare. I mean, California they’ve redone their regulatory. Group five, six times is what now it’s the DCC, right? They have two different divisions. I think it just creates a nightmare from an [00:34:00] unlimited license standpoint from regulations, shortcuts. I mean, now you’re talking companies that are manufacturing products, taking shortcuts, getting ’em on the shelves.

[00:34:08] You’re putting consumers health at risk too. Right. It’s just, it’s really, really hard to regulate that many different entities when you’re starting a whole new industry. And that’s my perspective, my soapbox I’m done with it. Um, that’s

[00:34:21]Bryan Fields: it. That’s your Shalene, if you want it. Yeah. I wanna hear it get ’em.

[00:34:27]Shaleen Title: I love talking to people who have been in Washington, cuz that’s such a, um, interesting experience.

[00:34:34] That’s so different from Massachusetts and you had, yeah, you have no. Out of state investment. Right. And you have no vertical integration in Washington. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:46]Bryan Fields: Uh, you can have, like, you can

[00:34:47]Kellan Finney: be vertical up into owning a retail license, so you can’t own retail, but you can own the supply chain all the way up.

[00:34:52] And I mean, you may not legally be able to with one person, but then it creates all these like loopholes and like, [00:35:00]

[00:35:00]Bryan Fields: DBAs and

[00:35:00]Kellan Finney: shell companies where like you have this master conglomerate of 20 different companies that are all shell company on shell company. And this company owns a cultivation license and this one owns a cultivation license and they just happen to be on the same property, but they’re different companies.

[00:35:16] So like it just forces these, these entities into playing these crazy, crazy

[00:35:20]Bryan Fields: complex

[00:35:21]Shaleen Title: games. Yeah, we have a wealth of information there that we should be using, um, when it comes to crafting a federal framework and I talk to small businesses in Washington and they tell me that exact story and, uh, It’s really helpful because, you know, in Massachusetts, like we just, we don’t have , we don’t have very many small operators at all.

[00:35:43] And in the real limited license states, like they couldn’t even be there at all, you know? And here we have a few, but they started late. But I think, um, we can learn from that, right? Like when we, like I said, when we enforce our license limits here, It did take a ton of [00:36:00] investments and it still does to unravel those conglomerate shell company, loophole situations.

[00:36:06] And then we also have to encourage people to, um, to, to basically snitch when they see it happening to regulators. Right. And I think. That is helpful because now we can see both of those models and then have a, a chance to actually craft something at the federal level that takes real life experience into account.

[00:36:28]Kellan Finney: It’s pretty beautiful that, uh, we were able to create all these different Petri dishes from, uh, an experiment standpoint, at least socially. Right?

[00:36:37]Shaleen Title: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s what frustrates me that, that’s why I started to think tank because when I look at the federal bills, Right now they don’t take the state experiences into account.

[00:36:49] Like that work just hasn’t been done. What? Like we have time to do it, but we like, we better get started now.

[00:36:54]Bryan Fields: They’re like, they’re like states are doing this. We had no idea. we’ll do our own thing. let’s [00:37:00] do, let’s do a quick, rapid fire.

[00:37:02]Shaleen Title: Wait, can I talk about the potency caps real quick? Yeah. Go for it. Yes, please.

[00:37:05] I just wanted to say, I, I really agree with you. And I think that, um, that’s actually pretty brave in my mind to say, I think that’s a pretty controversial position to say that when yeah, totally. I did a talk, um, at. A guest lecture at Stanford, like two weeks ago. And I had never gotten into an argument with the student before, but I said, I could.

[00:37:27] I said, I agree with potency caps for very much the same reason. And the student just like freaked out at me because people really think that once you start talking about potency caps, that, you know, it’s the, um, It’s the like prohibition, you know, 2.0 coming in, but that’s really not the case. If we’re going to regulate this, we have to regulate it.

[00:37:49] Well, so I just, I admire you for saying that. I think it was brave. Yeah. I mean,

[00:37:53]Kellan Finney: I I’ve drinking moonshot before and I don’t think I’ll ever do it again. You know, like , it’s not [00:38:00] fun.

[00:38:00]Bryan Fields: It’s a personal choice there, bud.

[00:38:02]Kellan Finney: Oh, you, you you’d been sipping on your moon shine a lot. .

[00:38:07]Bryan Fields: All right. I’m moving into the rapid fire.

[00:38:08] I’m excited, Chalene, true or false states should allow medical operators to switch to recreational false under the radar state. You think where the market will be bigger than most believe North Carolina true or false? A successful cannabis market is one that is opened as fast as. False legalizing cannabis federally will solve industry’s current problems of inequality, access.

[00:38:37] Ooh, false, false, false, true, or false all states should allow some version of homegirl. True, better chance of happening. First, Michigan beating Ohio state and football, or some form of banking being passed in cannabis.

[00:38:52]Shaleen Title: banking,

[00:38:53]Bryan Fields: which outside industry Titan do you think is poised to be a major threat in canvas?

[00:38:58]Shaleen Title: Outside industry [00:39:00] Titan. Yeah. Uh, can you make that multiple choice

[00:39:03]Bryan Fields: can be a big tobacco company, a big alcohol company, a big tech company. Who do you think that is not currently operating in cannabis? Are you most fearful of can come in and dominate cannabis? Uh,

[00:39:15]Shaleen Title: none of them we’re gonna hold them all off with anti laws.

[00:39:18] I love it.

[00:39:19]Bryan Fields: What is one factor statistic that would shock people working in the cannabis? Uh,

[00:39:30] people

[00:39:30]Shaleen Title: working in the cannabis industry, um, the regulators don’t know anything about cannabis. Typically. Like they come into the job, they don’t know what a tincture is. They don’t know what any of the products are and they’re just learning it on the. You accomplished, it included, excluded, sorry. It’s there’s

[00:39:51]Bryan Fields: so much going on.

[00:39:51] You accomplished a ton at the cannabis control commission in Massachusetts. What single item are you most proud of? And what do you wish you would’ve changed? [00:40:00]

[00:40:00]Shaleen Title: Um, I’m most proud of the way that those limits were enforced. Um, I really think that some companies came into Massachusetts ready to dominate the market and just left because it wasn’t worth it for them.

[00:40:14] Um, and I’m also proud of the activist community in Massachusetts. That was very influential in the way that laws got passed and they pressured, um, Certain companies to drop lawsuits. We don’t have the social equity lawsuit problem that other states have because, um, our activist community was so informed and engaged and organized.

[00:40:35] What I wish we would’ve done differently is, um, just taken more time. You know, there was a lot of. I would go as far to, as to call it abuse from the public. You know, when, when, like it was starting to be a, a year that had passed and they were like, get, get the retail store open, do whatever you have to do.

[00:40:54] And like really just, um, being, uh, hard to ignore, [00:41:00] I guess. But I wish that we would have ignored them and just built the. program that most of the voters wanted to see, you know, no matter how long it took, because here we are five years later, you know, nobody would’ve noticed, nobody would remember now, you know, if it took an additional year and we had a ton of small businesses and, and social consumption and, um, just something that really respected the dignity of cannabis consumers, I wish we would’ve taken our time and done that.

[00:41:31]Bryan Fields: Before I, I was researching you. I was very upset that New York has taken so long. And after kind of reading some of the information you’ve put out, I’ve slightly had a different approach and feel a little more comfortable that we are taking our time and hope and hope that we actually get it right. Uh, versus just rushing through and getting started.

[00:41:48] So I thank you for that. That’s great to hear 20 years from now, we will look back and say that was barbaric. I can’t believe we did that in cannabis. What is that? [00:42:00]

[00:42:00]Shaleen Title: Fired people for using cannabis,

[00:42:02]Bryan Fields: barbaric, barbaric, since you’ve been in the Canita industry, what has been the biggest misconception

[00:42:11]Shaleen Title: that all cannabis users are the same and that they’re all heavy users.

[00:42:18]Bryan Fields: Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in the cannabinoid space in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it

[00:42:26]Shaleen Title: be? We have the power and don’t look at other industries or lobbyists or, um, subjects and try to learn from them because we are very much our own movement.

[00:42:40] Um, we’ve been very successful just listening to the people and we gotta keep doing that.

[00:42:45]Bryan Fields: All right. Prediction time. Tell are you with us? Oh, I’m here. Oh, beautiful. All right. You came in time for the prediction. All right. Shalene. Oh, thank goodness. Some in the traditional market have expressed they don’t receive opportunities to contribute.[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] What can the traditional market do to make itself better heard by policymakers?

[00:43:06]Shaleen Title: So I would say the same advice for anybody that wants to be heard by policymakers, which is, um, Create a platform for yourself so that they have to take you seriously. And that’s not hard. That’s just getting a lot of very organized and engaged people together, um, who care about something, making sure you’re all speaking in a.

[00:43:30] Most the most uni unified voice as possible. And then talk to the press, get on social media and then talk to the regulators with specifics, you know, the two or three points that you want. Don’t be abusive to the regulators. Just be nice, be honest, be authentic and ask for those two or three things.

[00:43:49] That’ll get you heard

[00:43:50]Bryan Fields: Kelly. I mean, I,

[00:43:57] that’s not gonna work.[00:44:00]

[00:44:03] All right. I don’t think we have Kevin, so I will, we’ll go for. I, I agree Shaline with what you’re saying, and I would take it one step further. I, I would say that the people who want their voices to be heard need to show their fakes. I think one of the biggest things that I’ve heard from some of them is that they’re fearful of, of coming forward and expressing their interests because they’re fearful of repercussions for, for their previous history operating in the space.

[00:44:28] And I would say that it’s really hard to. Guidance from someone, even if they’re the most informed on decision from, uh, a person who has, let’s say a Twitter, a as their profile photo, I think, you know, revealing yourself and coming forward and standing behind what you’ve done as an individual in the space.

[00:44:43] I think you need to have a, a, a face to the name. And I think that provides credibility. So I would say feeling more comfortable, kind of rising to the forefront and operating, uh, above ground and allowing, you know, people to see what you have accomplished, which means maybe being vulnerable, but also more importantly, being more [00:45:00] transparent.

[00:45:02]Shaleen Title: I think that’s right. Yeah. There’s definitely special considerations if you’re in the legacy market and I’m not going to, um, I’m not going to tell someone if you are uncomfortable, making yourself visible, you know, that that’s not valid, but as far as how to be the most effective typically, yes, the more transparent you are and the more you use your real name and your authentic, the more effective you’re going to be in policy.

[00:45:27]Bryan Fields: I can’t imagine taking, uh, information from cannabis user 7 25 is like, all right, well, how, how will I reach you? Cannabis user 7 25. I can’t imagine that’s the most helpful. Kevin, are you here to weigh in? I am here. Can you hear me? Yeah. You wanna go for it? Uh,

[00:45:44]Kellan Finney: yeah, I was gonna say, I just agree with what Shaline was saying as far as, uh, being heard.

[00:45:49] And I think the thing that, uh, the strategy that

[00:45:52]Shaleen Title: sticks out in my mind as far as. Um,

[00:45:56]Kellan Finney: getting more attention is the same strategy [00:46:00] that was implemented, like with the civil rights movement. I think a lot of people are very

[00:46:03]Shaleen Title: angry with how the

[00:46:05]Kellan Finney: industry’s been treated by regulators over the last hundred years.

[00:46:09] But I don’t think like responding in an aggressive manner, um, is the right way to approach it. I think

[00:46:15]Shaleen Title: it’s like, uh, we just gotta continue to take baby steps and kind

[00:46:20]Kellan Finney: of play the nice guy card, um, until it works, if you will,

[00:46:24]Bryan Fields: you. It’s gonna take time. I think that there’s a lot that needs to be done. And if it’s not done the right way, like Shalene said, if we rush to open the market speed is not our friend there, because like you were saying, it’s hard to walk back.

[00:46:37] It’s hard to add additional regulations on top of it’s better to start a little more regulated and then lightly remove them as you go. At least from just a safety and efficacy standpoint in order to make sure that we’re not jeopardizing, you know, consumer health and, and hurting an industry that already has massive stigmas against the.

[00:46:54]Shaleen Title: Well, let me just clarify though. I’m not saying that, um, you have to be civil all the time, you know, [00:47:00] or, or take baby steps necessarily. You should be asking for whatever bold proposals you wanna see, you know, ask for them. But the key is to do it in a way that’s going to build your power and yeah, being abusive is not going to get you power, but what will build your power is if you are.

[00:47:18] Building a large coalition. And you’re specific in what you ask for, and you’re always offering a solution, right? Like you you’re right. You just said, you know, a lot of people are angry, um, but just, you know, channeling your anger. Isn’t going to get you any results. If you take your anger and you take your indignation and you turn it into the actual solutions that you wanna see and you ask for them, that’s when you’re gonna get.

[00:47:44]Bryan Fields: Awesome. So Shalene for our listeners, they wanna learn more. They want to get in touch, where can they find ya?

[00:47:49]Shaleen Title: So I’m very active on Twitter, just at Shalene title. And then you can find parabola center on Twitter and Instagram. If you go to parabola center.com, you can find [00:48:00] all of our reports and model bills and tools.

[00:48:03] Those are all free for everybody.

[00:48:05]Bryan Fields: Awesome. We will link all those up in the show notes. Thanks so much for taking the time. This was really fun. [00:48:10]Shaleen Title: It was fun. Thanks for having me. Thank.

Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!

This week we are joined by Damian Fagon, Chief Equity Office of NY State of Cannabis management to discuss:

• How the NY Cannabis market will unfold
• Grey market
•  MSOs in NY
• And so much more

https://cannabis.ny.gov/

About Damian 

Mr. Fagon is a 3rd-generation farmer with a background in international development and agriculture. He has led development initiatives with castor farmers in Jamaica, rice growers in Sierra Leone, and coffee exporters in Guatemala. Since 2017, he has launched and advised commercial cannabis operations in South Carolina, New York, and the Caribbean.  As Chief Equity Officer, Mr. Fagon will oversee the social and economic equity initiatives for the Office of Cannabis Management.

#Cannabis  #Cannabiscommunity #NYCannabis

At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev), we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.

8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain 

The Dime is a top 50 Cannabis Podcast 

 Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney

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[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s episode of the fields. And with me is always this Finn this week, we’ve got a very special guest Damien Fagan, chief equity officer for New York state management, Damien. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing

[00:00:14]Damian Fagon: today? I’m doing good guys. How are you guys doing? I’m doing well. How are you doing?

[00:00:21] I’m

[00:00:22]Bryan Fields: doing

[00:00:22]Kellan Finney: great, really excited to talk to Damien and looking forward to learning as much as we can about the New York cannabis market. How are

[00:00:29]Bryan Fields: you, Brian? I’m doing good. It’s really, it’s really nice of you to join us from Hawaii. And, uh, I guess, Damien, this is really important for the record. Uh, where are you located?

[00:00:39]Damian Fagon: Uh, well, I live in Manhattan. Um, I’ve probably lived in like five different neighborhoods in New York city. Just why I’ve been here about nine years. Um, so I, yeah, I’m doing this call from. East 66th street that gives us

[00:00:54]Bryan Fields: another east coaster Callen. So let the record stay so beginning for our listeners.

[00:00:59] Can you give a little [00:01:00] background about

[00:01:00]Damian Fagon: yourself? Yeah, for sure. Um, so I, uh, I was, uh, appointed to the position, uh, back in June. Um, prior to that I’ve done a lot of different jobs. Uh, but you know, my, my general background is, you know, economic development and international development, uh, primarily with the focus on agriculture.

[00:01:22] So, uh, I’ve spent a lot of time working with farmers. In a lot of different countries, um, a lot of different, uh, crops, but primarily looking at ways to add, um, you know, rev, revenue, generating activities, value, added activities, uh, for farmers, uh, to make more money on their crop, um, to increase exports, increase yields.

[00:01:44] And, and so, you know, when I entered the cannabis space, uh, I started looking at it in grad school back in 2015, and it was primarily through that lens that I was looking at cannabis. Um, a commodity crop, a cash crop that, um, held a ton of [00:02:00] value in terms of, you know, rural development, economic development, bottom up inclusive growth, you know, opportunity really, um, for a lot of low income communities, not just here in the states, but around the world.

[00:02:14] Talk to us about your

[00:02:15]Bryan Fields: role. How, how did you get involved with the office of, of cannabis management? And was it something that you sought that was something that you always wanted to aspire to take us? Take us

[00:02:23]Damian Fagon: to that. Yeah. Uh, it’s pretty unique, uh, story actually. So no, I, I did never pursued the position.

[00:02:32] Um, I didn’t really apply for it either. Um, it wasn’t on my radar for a long time. I, I think cuz I was assuming, you know, the office Canice management, you know, the, the folks in Albany, they would, you know, put someone in the position who had 30 years of experience running. So and so agency or, you know, had had, um, I basically, uh, you know, paid their dues, uh, back in Albany to, to, to, you know, be appointed to this position.

[00:02:58] I was [00:03:00] busy living my, my own life as a cannabis advocate and a nonprofit director in the south Bronx, uh, up until about March of this year, uh, got on a, a radio interview. Um, A couple guys who are, you know, good friends of mine mentors. Um, they, they have a radio show in Harlem, uh, Curtis Archer and Bob Ponte.

[00:03:22] And so they put me on their radio show to talk cannabis. And so we had an hour and a half conversation about where the state was in terms of, you know, rolling out his program and what that meant for, you know, black economic development, black, black opportu. Social equity, uh, rollout. And, you know, uh, that radio interview was heard by the majority leader, crystal people, Stokes, um, who has, you know, many of you guys know, um, is, you know, the, the soul and primary driver of the M RT a and I got a, an invite to come meet her in Albany.

[00:03:57] Uh, a week after that, uh, met with her [00:04:00] for, you know, about 90 minutes. I completely just thought it was an opportunity to kind of share. Ideas about what I thought the state could be doing before, returning back to my job, uh, in, in, in the south Bronx and in Brooklyn, uh, doing workforce development. But, uh, I guess, you know, after that conversation, she, um, was thinking differently about my future.

[00:04:19] And so that’s kind of how my name, you know, entered the conversation about the position. Uh, I had, you know, that was, it was only about three months after that, where I was finally offered the position. There was a lot of conversations with Chris and some other folks on the team just to figure out, you know, if it was a good fit, you know, ultimately like I just want the program to succeed.

[00:04:41] I, and I still feel that way obviously, but, um, uh, I, I needed to be certain that I was, you know, the right guy at the time for the role and, and that involved a lot of conversations with Chris and other members of the executive team to really figure out, um, what their priorities were, you know, where I was coming from.

[00:04:58] Uh, Chris obviously needed to get to know me a [00:05:00] little bit better. Uh, that that’s sort of how it happened. There was no, you know, like job application that was sent out. It was, it was, I was doing my thing, talking about, you know, cannabis in New York and what, what, what should happen and the right people heard it.

[00:05:16] We’d say

[00:05:17]Bryan Fields: that we’ve been for of your biggest. We’ve be fortunate to have some incredible guests on here. And I do think dam that you have the hardest roll out of all of them. So take us through what the, the first day on the job is like, right? Like, are you getting up to speed? Are you thinking about plants?

[00:05:32] Like take us through those first couple days as you try to, to get your feet wet in a role that is as challenging as all

[00:05:37]Damian Fagon: of them are. Yeah, I think, uh, you know, as I was saying, like, I, I, I I’ve worked in government before, right. I I’ve been in federal government in DC, which is very different than state government.

[00:05:49] So I, I walked into the role without a lot of experience, um, in Albany, you know, I’d only been to Albany a few times, uh, to advocate, um, around [00:06:00] cannabis. Uh, and so there was just, you know, as you can understand, imagine there’s a lot of acronyms. I need to learn a lot of different agencies and their roles I needed to figure.

[00:06:08] Uh, I think that the first month was mostly spent talking to, you know, directors, uh, from other agencies, you know, directors inside, uh, OCM, and really just getting a sense for how, uh, New York state government worked. Um, you know, I, I, my first question occur, he’s like, can you fire me? and he was like, I don’t know yet.

[00:06:31] um, and so, you know, there’s just, there was a lot of questions I had. I mean, I, I, I know what the role. Is is meant for, I know what the role is supposed to do. I know how important the task is, you know, uh, you know, in front of the chief equity officer, but what I didn’t understand is the tools that were available to me to implement them.

[00:06:47] And that’s something that I’m still figuring out to this day. And, um, and, and yeah, it’s a learning process, but, uh, I think I benefited, you know, you know, I, I bring a lot to the role because I’ve. [00:07:00] In the cannabis space, uh, for the last seven years, uh, as a small operator, as an advocate, as a nonprofit worker.

[00:07:08] And so, you know, I, I was already in the community, in the cannabis community, in New York, talking to, uh, entrepreneurs, um, activists, uh, and others, including elected elected officials. And so, uh, sliding into their role. You know, I had the community, uh, you know, insight. I kind of knew what I envisioned for the role and, and envisioned for the, for the state role out of the social equity program.

[00:07:30] And. Really, you know, it’s been about socializing, what I, what I wanted to see, you know, as an advocate, as an activist with what’s possible now that I’m in government. And I think that that is something that a lot of folks, you know, there’s a lot of tough lessons there. Like you, you know, you have all these ideas of how you, how you think the government should be implementing certain programs and, um, you know, creating space for the most harmed and.

[00:07:59] Being [00:08:00] inclusive and equitable. And then, you know, when you get into the spaces where now you are in charge of implementing those programs, you, you find that, you know, there’s a lot of obstacles. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of, uh, realities of, you know, what the government can and can’t do, uh, that really limit the scope or expand the scope in some cases.

[00:08:19] But, uh, you don’t really know what what’s possible until you get into these positions and start talking to the lawyers.

[00:08:27]Bryan Fields: I think so.

[00:08:29]Kellan Finney: Go for mention ops. Yeah. Uh, thanks, Brian. So you mentioned obstacles, Damien, what, um, were some of the major obstacles that you first faced and were you able to kinda look at some of the other adult rack markets that have tried, uh, to implement social equity programs?

[00:08:45] Have you been able to kind of gather at least some solutions that they have tried to navigate those same obstacles?

[00:08:52]Damian Fagon: Oh, absolutely. I mean that. The number one thing I can say about me in this position is everything I’m coming up [00:09:00] with. Everything I’m proposing. Everything I’m pushing for internally is the result of years of talking to social equity operators and activists and more mature markets.

[00:09:10] Um, I got tapped in, you know, a few years, few years back with, uh, social equity advocates out in California, you know, Michigan, Colorado, and. Was on basically like weekly calls with a bunch of different groups, you know, learning about their roadblocks, their setbacks, what the state and city and municipalities were doing in their areas that, that, that was working and that, that wasn’t working.

[00:09:35] And, you know, like a lot of, a lot of the things that, um, a lot of the, the advantages that New York has in this position is that hindsight, that benefit of looking at what other states have tried to do and implement, uh, and learn from those mistakes. I mean, there, it, it, it, and it it’s really granular too.

[00:09:55] Like I spent, uh, a few weeks looking at the O Oakland’s loan [00:10:00] program and trying to understand what went wrong there. And, you know, when you dive into it and some of the reports that they release you, you, you realize they didn’t have enough staff to process all the applications for the loans or for the social equity, um, prioritization, you know, applications, whatever.

[00:10:16] And so there was just a backup in P. This might have actually been San Francisco, but, um, that was, that’s just like a human resource management thing that, you know, we can anticipate and solve for. Uh, and so I think, you know, to, to our benefit and to the, to the benefit of the social equity applicants in this state is we’re not gonna make, we’re not gonna make those same mistakes.

[00:10:36] Um, and we’re gonna, we’re going to use best practices. Uh, we’re not going to necessarily reinvent the wheel. We’re definitely gonna try some new things because we owe. that To the industry we owe that experimental experimentation with, with government policy and government intervention in this space to see if there aren’t better solutions to improving access, um, you know, making it more [00:11:00] inclusive and, and readily available to, to, um, Americans to, to get into the industry.

[00:11:05] And. We will be, you know, deploying a lot of things that have been done in other states, um, taking into account some of the, the, you know, the, the larger, smaller issues that, that held them back from succeeding and also trying new things. And so that’s, that’s ultimately, um, where, where I, I derive a lot of, you know, inspiration and, and insight into the process.

[00:11:28] Is, is those more experienced operators in other.

[00:11:30] state

[00:11:32]Bryan Fields: I think those are so important, but I, I kind of wanna stay in the beginning. So let’s talk about like your actual role from like a day to day standpoint in layman’s terms for those who are unfamiliar. Well, let’s say with cannabis, you know, can you explain what your role is and,

[00:11:45] and,

[00:11:45]Damian Fagon: and how

[00:11:47]Bryan Fields: your, your kids are handled, uh, moving forward and getting the

[00:11:50]Damian Fagon: market to open up.

[00:11:52] Yeah. So, you know, I work, you know, hand in glove with Chris Alexander, our executive director and the cannabis control board and the [00:12:00] advisory board to ensure that, you know, the policies that we’re implementing, the programs we’re launching, the regulations we’re writing are going to produce equitable outcomes.

[00:12:11] Um, you know, I. Have the tough job of, you know, ensuring that we live up to the high ideals of the MRT. A, I mean, you read that document and you’re inspi, you know, I, I read it, I was inspired. I was like, the state’s really gonna do this. And, uh, you know, then, uh, you, you, the position, the chief equity officer position is really to just, uh, as a, as a, as not necessarily just a watchdog, but also, uh, a manager of those programs and those initiatives and.

[00:12:40] Um, a, a, a big part of my role at the moment, um, is ensuring that the regulatory, uh, framework that we’re gonna deploy over the next, you know, year, uh, creates, uh, equitable licensing, uh, grants, uh, for social equity businesses, uh, low [00:13:00] interest loans, um, that were also creating, uh, incentives cuz you know, another element.

[00:13:07] The chief equity officer role is economic development. You know, this is something that is, uh, within my team’s, um, authority to, to, to work on and, and, and economic development includes things like, you know, do we, what can we do to incentivize our craft growers, um, to, you know, start producer cooperatives, to work together, to ensure that, you know, craft cultivation.

[00:13:32] Is successful in New York state. What are we doing to ensure, uh, distressed farmers? You know, multi-generational family farms, uh, have a chance to in, you know, incorporate cannabis into their, uh, crop rotation, uh, to, to, you know, in, uh, generate another revenue stream. That’ll save their farm. There are elements of what we’re doing that are, you know, focused on harm, uh, uh, um, Repairing the harm from the war on drugs, which [00:14:00] is, you know, central to the MRT.

[00:14:01] A and there are other elements that are about like, how do we make, you know, the 10 billion industry that we’re about to, you know, see develop here in New York state, as you know, uh, redistributive and, uh, um, widespread as it can be. You know, there’s a lot of parts of this date, um, here in here in the city and, uh, throughout central New York.

[00:14:25] And upstate New York that, you know, have really have really seen, uh, a lot of economic hardship over the last few decades. And so there’s, um, a lot of programs that we’re developing and, uh, regulations that we’re developing to ensure that, you know, the, the, the money that’s generated from this industry and the businesses that are started are located are geographically diverse and prioritize.

[00:14:52] You know, a lot of those groups that have been left behind. Uh, you know, the loss of big industry, the loss of manufacturing [00:15:00] and the, the struggles of some of the organic vegetable farms and the dairy industry. And so it’s a big mandate, but, um, we got a big team and so, and we’re growing every day. I think one thing that I, I don’t think a lot of people understand is that six months ago our agency probably.

[00:15:18] You know, 20 full time staff for, for stage 20 million people. We’re now at about 120 hundred 30 full time staff. And we’re scaling up to hopefully in the next six months, about 200. Uh, and so the work that we’re doing, I think people can see is, is, um, accelerating, uh, but it, and it’ll continue to accelerate as we bring on more staff.

[00:15:40] And, um, but yeah, that’s what my team is focused on is equity and economic develop. Across the state. It’s a

[00:15:47]Bryan Fields: massive challenge. And I think one of the areas that excites me most is that it’s not just words your team, isn’t just saying it, but they’re actually backing up with, with swift action, which I think is, is one of the big differences we’ve seen from other states who have, who have made [00:16:00] promises in order to, to try to take a different approach.

[00:16:02] So let’s, let’s start from the very beginning. Today is September 8th. What is the current status in New York and then who has a first opportunity to go

[00:16:10]Damian Fagon: first? Well, yeah, I mean, so. The, um, the industry, you know, the, the first conditional licenses that went out earlier this year were to the conditional, uh, hemp farmers, the adult use conditional cultivators.

[00:16:28] Uh, so right now we’re at about maybe two hundred and forty two hundred fifty, uh, conditional cultivators who are harvesting right now. You know, many of them are harvesting over the next month. Um, the, the first legal cannabis crops in the. Um, the next route of licensing, we authorized were conditional processors who also came outta the hemp program and had been in many cases, processing CBD, uh, and making, um, edibles tinctures, uh, in the CBD market over the last five years.

[00:16:56] So we have about 15 of those licensed now that are working [00:17:00] with our, a UCCS to, to convert that, that raw material, that biomass in most cases into, um, edibles and, and, um, beverages and everything else that are, and then those products, uh, will end up on the shelves of our next conditional, uh, license, which are the, is the card program.

[00:17:17] And that’s the traditional adult use retail, uh, dispensary program that we are launching. That is probably the most innovative approach to. Social equity licensing and, and, uh, um, prioritization of, of people with, you know, individuals with, um, marijuana related convictions, uh, that we’ve seen in the nation.

[00:17:38] And so. Uh, those are the first licenses. These are all conditional licenses, uh, that isn’t to say that they, they, they will forever be conditional licenses. These will, these will all be part of our legal, uh, adult use supply chain. Um, but, but, um, that, that’s how we decided to, to, to start the industry here in New York.

[00:17:57] And, uh, that is with small family [00:18:00] farms, many of them, uh, and I’ll say, and I’ll say this, cause I speak from experience cause I was a hemp farmer in the state of New York. Um, many of the conditional cultivators that we license. Uh, we’re, you know, facing some serious, you know, economic challenges and financial challenges, the hemp market, the CBD market on the east coast and probably on the west coast as well.

[00:18:20] Uh, did not turn out to be, you know, um, the panacea that I think a lot of people thought it would be. And unfortunately, a lot of our farmers got hurt by that and, and, and made big investments that, you know, the, the demand couldn’t back up. And so, uh, bringing them into the adult use market was a priority.

[00:18:39] uh, to, to, to, um, ensure that, you know, we didn’t, you know, the hemp, the hemp opportunity didn’t end up destroying, you know, multiple dozens of family farms, multi-generational family farms. I mean, some of these farms are over 200 years old. They’ve been in the same family. And so, uh, uh, a, a big, a big piece of, uh, of what, how we started this industry is, is with this, [00:19:00] um, conditional licensing period.

[00:19:02] And the regulations that, that are, that are imminently coming out in, uh, in the fall, um, this fall, uh, will inform the next licensing period, which we hope to make available to all other applicants, social equity and non-social equity, uh, by, uh, the middle of next year. Yeah, I’m

[00:19:23]Kellan Finney: glad you mentioned the, the hemp industry.

[00:19:25] It is, uh, it’s been a, a challenge for everyone in the whole country, I imagine. Um, and so what are some of the, the economic support that you guys are providing? Some of these farms that are transitioning over to adult use cannabis? Uh, could you kind of elaborate on that David for us?

[00:19:42]Damian Fagon: I mean, the economic support that they’re getting is they’re the first to grow adult use cannabis in, you know, one of the biggest markets on the east coast.

[00:19:50] Uh, and so, you know, a lot of these farmers are close friends of mine, um, colleagues, um, many of them helped me out when I was, you know, a small hemp farmer. [00:20:00] Uh, I, you know, previous to this, uh, job, I was on the board with the largest cannabis. Industry association in the state that primarily composed of initially was primarily composed of hemp farmers.

[00:20:11] And I think, I think that’s a lot, I think that a lot of, you know, maybe west coast from experienced operators to understand is that when, if you wanted to get into cannabis on the east coast in 20 16, 20 17, you had to go and you were, you wanted to stay legal. Uh, you had to go through him. Um, and so I, myself and a bunch of other farmers in New York went to hemp so we could learn how to grow cannabis.

[00:20:35] Um, and, and prepare for that opportunity as well. And so, um, yeah. Was, you know, the benefits that, that, that the hemp farmers are seeing is really. The first to, to find out what kind of genetics are, are gonna work, uh, with outdoor cultivation, New York state. Um, and the second is, you know, they’re gonna be first to market.

[00:20:55] Uh, when the, when our, our retail, when our conditional retail stores open up, um, and they [00:21:00] also, you know, the conditional license, um, is a two year license. So they will also be doing the same thing, um, outdoor in greenhouses next year, as. When you’re rolling

[00:21:09]Bryan Fields: out the licenses and you’re doing it the way you said where you’re, you’re kind of changing the game and making it go different

[00:21:15]Damian Fagon: because it’s, it’s newer.

[00:21:17]Bryan Fields: Right? A lot of people have said that they’re going to put others

[00:21:20]Damian Fagon: first,

[00:21:20]Bryan Fields: but you’re actually backing that up. Was there pushback from other people in the room who were saying other people’s opinions, maybe some of the bigger companies who wanted to have opportunities to, to be one of the first to enter the market?

[00:21:31]Damian Fagon: Yeah, no. Absolutely. And, uh, it’s been, um, challenging to say the least, you know, talk because, cause we’re not trying to shut anyone. New York state, like that’s that has never been the intention of the conditional program. Um, I think it’s important to understand, like I was saying six months ago, the, the agency had 20, probably 20 full-time staff.

[00:21:53] We were in no position to roll out thousands of licenses and open up applications to companies from all over the country. [00:22:00] It wouldn’t, it would’ve been a disaster, but we still recognized. You know, an opportunity to get something going. Um, and you know, at that state, you know, I, I wasn’t on, on the team at that point.

[00:22:12] I was, uh, merely an advocate outside of it, you know, pushing them one way or the other, or trying to, um, and, and not succeeding, but, uh, You know, at that point, you know, six months ago, the outdoor cultivation season, we have one season in New York, um, and, and it was coming up and we knew, and I think that there were people at OCM who knew they wanted to do this conditional retail.

[00:22:35] Um, program. And so the, there was a need to generate some product, some legal product that could stock the shelves by winter. And, uh, that’s where the hemp program came in. They were, they had the infrastructure, they had the facilities, the processors had the equipment. Um, it just made sense and it started the industry off, um, in a way that we haven’t seen done in any other state with, you know, [00:23:00] small family farms and, uh, those most harmed by the war on drugs.

[00:23:04] And. Uh, It’s definitely not, uh, a perfect , um, start, but it is sending a message and it is, uh, in, in incorporating a lot of folks right off the bat at the beginning of the industry that are in, in, in every other state have been left behind or have been kept out. And so. This is going to be, uh, no cap market.

[00:23:28] This is, this is not a limiting, limiting, uh, limited licensing market. Um, we’re not, we’re not putting caps on licenses and we’re, we’re definitely opening it up to big players, small players and large and medium size players. Um, but you know, there just, there wasn’t the capacity at the beginning of this year to, to even begin to think about, um, managing what that looks like, you know, as far as.

[00:23:49] You know, it just everything, just the, the, the, you saw how many applications New Jersey got in the first week of them opening up applications. Like, um, we’re [00:24:00] scaling up staff, uh, in anticipation of, uh, a similar, um, uh, situation here. And so, uh, we’re in a much better place now and over the next six months to begin, you know, uh, um, Preparing for, for the larger rollout, uh, of, of the industry.

[00:24:18] When we’re talking about thousands of licenses here, what,

[00:24:23]Kellan Finney: uh, dam, what do you think the timeline.

[00:24:26]Damian Fagon: Timeline. Yeah.

[00:24:27]Kellan Finney: Transitioning from what everyone is branding as a limited license state to, uh, to kind of this open season, if you will, where anyone can kind of go apply.

[00:24:37]Damian Fagon: Yeah. Um, and so I, I, I, I do wanna talk about the timeline a little bit because, you know, I’ve noticed a lot of people in New York, um, even, you know, friends of mine, people who’ve been in the industry for a while and are patiently waiting.

[00:24:50] They’ve got their properties in mind. They’ve got their business plan ready. Um, and they’ve been ready for the last six months. And I, I know a ton of incredible legacy [00:25:00] operators, farmers, um, store owners who are, um, anxious to, to get into this space. Uh, and so, you know, when I, when I hear people talking about what’s taking so long, it’s like you could have every, you know, every, um, desire for us to take our time with this.

[00:25:18] Um, I think. In state after state, you know, you’ve seen states, uh, state officials kind of rush through this process and, you know, deputize the medical operators to go first and then open it up to just pro uh, applicants who are ready to start building out facilities immediately. There’s no turning the dial back on that later.

[00:25:38] You know what I mean? Uh, and so the way you start an industry, the way you launch the foundation of a legal industry that is going to be here for a hundred years is you, is you should take your time with it. Um, you, you want to be intentional and deliberate with every single regulation that you put in place.

[00:25:56] Like, is this necessary? Is this not necessary? What kind of outcomes will happen if we [00:26:00] make this a requirement? And not that a requirement These should, these should take time. Um, you know, I, I liken it to, you know, uh, building a bridge, an infrastructure project like that bridge you want, you want that bridge to, to, to be there for a hundred years, you have to do a lot of engineering and planning before you start, um, laying the foundation of it.

[00:26:18] And, uh, you know, I’m thinking about those operators that are ready to go. Uh, right now I, I, I, I, I think about them a lot, but I’m also thinking about the. Who’s in the south Bronx who will, may want to enter the industry five years, 10 years from now. Um, we also want an industry to exist, uh, five, 10 years from now that, that, that, that, um, young entrepreneur can also access.

[00:26:42] And so, you know, we’re not looking at. You know, creating a couple hundred millionaires in the next two years, we’re looking at building a sustainable thriving, dynamic, innovative, inclusive, and you know, representative industry. That’s gonna be here for decades. [00:27:00] And, um, I just think it’s so shortsighted to rush that process.

[00:27:03] Like, you know, legal cannabis is here to stay. It’ll be nationwide eventually, uh, take your time. You know, this is an important plant. Like if you really care about cannabis, You really love this plant. Like a lot of people in this industry do, uh, you know, you, you should, you should really be pushing your legislators and your, um, your regulators to, to be intentional with this process.

[00:27:25] Uh, don’t rush it. Don’t take qu like, um, uh, what is it, uh, side streets or whatever, uh, uh, or cut corners or anything like that, like really work on it, really think about. Um, incorporate feedback from stakeholders, the community activists, the people who have, who fought for legalization for decades to get us to this point, incorporate what, what they have to say, incorporate legacy, talk to talk to the legacy operators and, and, you know, build something that’s here to last, not something that is temporary.

[00:27:59] I mean, David was [00:28:00] one of

[00:28:00]Bryan Fields: those people. So I definitely hear you, but I was also under the impression that speed was critical, given all of the other efforts. And I I’ve taken a different approach maybe over the last month where I think recognizing exactly like you said, like doing it right, is way more critical than doing it super fast.

[00:28:17] And then having all these issues where the industry doesn’t have. The ability to grow the right way over a long time, because cannabis is fighting not only stigmas, but various other issues that have, have given it challenges for quite some time. So making sure that the largest market in the entire world is built the correct way.

[00:28:35] Is is incredibly critical. And these steps now your team is taking are, are necessary in doing that. But one of the challenges though, with taking your time

[00:28:42]Damian Fagon: and doing it the right way

[00:28:43]Bryan Fields: are the, the pumping up of the grain market. So how, how does your team balance knowing that there’s illegal storefronts that are operating currently and that there’s trucks that are all around New York city.

[00:28:54] So how does your team handle those situations?

[00:28:57]Damian Fagon: Yeah. Uh, you know, it’s, it’s definitely, [00:29:00] uh, I think a shock to some, not a shock to others. And you know, the one thing I’ll say about the gray market that’s popping up and, uh, this is, this is an important, uh, element that, that differentiates New York city from a lot of other, uh, municipalities and states, uh, cause we’re the size of states, honestly.

[00:29:19] New York city is a very expensive city to live in. Right. Um, there have, it’s always been, you know, for the last 20 years, it’s been incredibly difficult, uh, for, for working class new Yorkers, um, middle income, middle class, new Yorkers to, to live here and to, you know, 75% of our city rent. And so cannabis, illicit cannabis has always been there.

[00:29:41] As kind of, um, uh, sort of, you know, some, something that, uh, folks can fall back on when they’ve lost a job or when they’ve missed a, you know, rent check, they can, they can bring a pack out from CA California. And, um, uh, supplement their income. And so, you know, when you [00:30:00] see the kind of free for all cannabis, gray market, that’s kind of popping up right now.

[00:30:05] There are a lot of PE you know, you know what rent, right? Right now it’s for a one bedroom in Manhattan. It’s like 4,000, $4,000. And so it, it, it’s, it’s very unique to the city, too. What, what what’s happening because it’s in, in most cases, these storefronts are being operated by outof. Uh, folks who, who are, you know, really just opportunistic cash grab.

[00:30:26] They, they recognize this gray area to make a little bit of money and they are making a lot of money. Uh, they’re also eating into, um, the, the, the revenue of traditional legacy operators. Who’ve been here selling cannabis for decades. Um, and so, yeah, we recognize that, you know, this is the result of the delayed rollout of the industry economic conditions that are unique to living in the most expensive city in the country.

[00:30:52] Um, and, and also just a, an incredible demand for weed, new Yorkers love weed, and, uh, they also need money. And so they’re gonna, they’re [00:31:00] gonna, they’re gonna combine those two. It’s a very entrepreneurial city. Um, now I think, you know, we’ve done a couple actions, uh, here in the city and, and across the state with local and, uh, state partners just yesterday.

[00:31:14] We, um, with our partners in, uh, New York city law enforcement, uh, I think impounded about 19 of those trucks. Um, so, you know, I think we’ve done that twice now where we’ve taken about 20 off the streets. Um, so 40 total, uh, and, you know, uh, we’re, we’re gonna continue working with our local partners to ensure that, you know, these storefronts, um, are shut down, cuz they are in violation of, of, of several, you know, tax violations, health code violations.

[00:31:42] Um, and the, the thing is, is that, you know, and, and I, and I want to, you. Really, uh, stressed. This is that there’s no return to what happened in New York before. And I don’t think a lot of people outside of New York and maybe people who aren’t familiar with the east coast and how law enforcement treated [00:32:00] weed for decades, but there’s absolutely no returning to the way we handled enforcement of a legal cannabis sales, uh, in this city and, and on, on the east coast, it, it can’t ever happen again.

[00:32:12] And so it’s not necessarily about. Shutting down this gray market and, and, uh, you know, punishing people for, for these violations. It’s about creating a legal industry that is accessible and, um, you know, potentially more lucrative for them to enter. And I, I think what we’ve seen in, in other states that had pretty, you know, significant illicit markets, I think Washington states a perfect example.

[00:32:40] Their illicit market sort of fades out into the background as they increase the footprint of the legal market. And I, I expect the same thing to happen in New York, you know, new Yorkers and the tourists who, you know, 60 million tourists that come here every year. Uh, you know, once we start, you know, opening up, uh, the amount of shops that we need to, to really meet demand and those, uh, shops are [00:33:00] selling top quality, tested, safe product.

[00:33:03] You’re gonna see it a shift away from the illit market into the legal market. And so that’s how we look at it. We don’t see it as necessarily enforcement issue, uh, where we need to start punishing people. We see it as we, we need to do better at, at lowering the barriers to entry and, and creating that OnRamp for these folks to join the legal industry.

[00:33:20]Kellan Finney: I think that was so well said, Damien and, um, excluding California, I would say every state that has launched an adult rec market has seen the gray market. Just fade into the background for all the points that you just touched on. Um, I do wanna kind of change the, the topic here and kind of bring up the, the, the fund.

[00:33:41] Um, what was the idea behind it? Could you kind of walk us through what that fund is? Its purpose is. Yeah.

[00:33:47]Damian Fagon: So, uh, the social equity fund. So this is also predates, uh, my by like six months, but, uh, this is the fund. Uh, you know, it, it, it’s got some state money in there, I think 50 million, uh, but it’s mostly private [00:34:00] privately raised, uh, fund that is going to support.

[00:34:03] The conditional adult use retail dispensaries, uh, you know, the fund is supposed to, to, you know, grow to be 200 million so we can support the creation and establishment of 150 dispensaries across the state. Um, and, and that money really, you know, is intended to create these turnkey retail operations, uh, that, uh, are.

[00:34:28] Uh, you know, justice impacted, um, card eligible applicants can kind of just plug in their operations, their brands, their business strategy. What have you into, you know, uh, state of the art turnkey facilities that are located in prime prime, uh, prime, uh, areas of the, of the city of, of upstate of central New York, long island.

[00:34:49] And so that the, the fund is intended to, to, to support that. And, um, uh, I know da. Has recently, uh, voted to finally, you know, [00:35:00] approve the fund and, uh, they’re gonna be, you know, uh, going out on the road, uh, raising money over the next six months, uh, to support that effort pretty

[00:35:09]Bryan Fields: unprecedented, right. To have a fund like that, and then to, to work, to help set up these businesses to get them to push

[00:35:14]Damian Fagon: off the ground.

[00:35:15] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it, it, it, it’s, it’s a lot of money, uh, and I think. It represents something, you know, unprecedented in the history of, you know, drugs and criminal justice in this country. Um, this is, you know, the state of the, a state of New York, you know, that only four years ago, four years ago, was throwing kids up against the wall all over the state, uh, patting them down and putting them, uh, in the back of a cop car for, you know, carrying a mildly psychoactive.

[00:35:50] That’s that’s how far we’ve come in four years as a state, as a city. And, um, to, to, to see the kind of backing that the fund is [00:36:00] getting to from, um, our, our representatives in Albany is just so huge. And, um, I, I, I love it. I, you know, one part of the reasons I took this job straight up, part of the reason I took this job is cause I heard that announcement.

[00:36:13] I heard what they were doing with the conditional adult use retail dispensaries. And I was like, oh, okay. These. Aren’t just talking a big game. They’re they’re going for it. And so. Decision to join, uh, join the team was entirely, you know, built up around the work that they had already committed to. Um, I saw the vision and I was like, man, these guys are serious.

[00:36:36] They’re putting money up, they’re putting they’re and you know what? It is really, really what it is. They’re doing the hard thing. Like, because you know, the easy thing is to just transition all the medical operators to adult. Let a few other guys in let, ’em do this vertical integration thing. It’s, it’s very easy to, to, to be compliant and to, to enforce all that.

[00:36:55] And, um, you know, there’s gonna be no issues. There’s gonna be no great market. There’s gonna be no, but they [00:37:00] chose the other way. They chose the hard way because it’s the right way. Um, and, and I, and I really respect that, cuz it’s risky. Um, politically risky, you know, uh, it’s also risky to some of these operators, you know, we can’t expect all of them to, to succeed year one.

[00:37:13] Uh, and. Uh, it, it, it it’s, it was a brave, it was a brave policy decision, uh, to pursue it. And, um, it really inspired me to join the team. But unfortunately though,

[00:37:24]Bryan Fields: with those policies, you anger some of the bigger players. So from ANSO perspective, I’m just gonna quote an article from camper. Fitzgerald said that multistate cannabis operator.

[00:37:34] We’ll be required to pay 20 million to help fund a 200 million state fund to help finance the first licenses. Is this, the approach that, that New York thought was better. And is there, is there plans in the future to try to adjust it in order to allow some of the bigger operators to come in and help support?

[00:37:49] Let’s say an exploding

[00:37:51]Damian Fagon: industry in New York. Yeah. I mean, let me just separate two funds really quick because so the social equity fund for the card recipients is $200 million. [00:38:00] Unrelated to the, the, this $20 million fee or whatever that is, uh, that’s referring to. Um, that is, that is a separate fund from the other.

[00:38:12] Pot of money that we are, um, focused on, which is for social equity programming that we, we intend to launch next year. Um, so the $200 million that was announced by the governor at the beginning of this year, you know, that is, that is, uh, being privately raised outside of, you know, um, anything to do with MSOs or ROS.

[00:38:30] Um, so, you know, onto this 20 million number, you know, first and foremost, um, I don’t know anything about 20 million. This is a decision that the cannabis control board, uh, will make. They, they ultimately decide when our 10. Uh, um, ROS our medical cannabis providers who, you know, many of them are the biggest cannabis companies in the country when they, the, the, the, the board will decide when they transition into the adult use market and how they, that transition will look, um, and, you know, the, the fee will be [00:39:00] negotiated at that level.

[00:39:01] Obviously we’ll have input on it, but you know, this is a decision that has not been made yet. Um, so there, there is no $20 million at any large MSO outside of New York, uh, will have to pay to access our market. The ROS who are, you know, Going to be entering the adult use market, um, with advantages like vertical integration, uh, will be paying a, a, a, a transition fee.

[00:39:27] Um, I don’t know what that number is yet, but, uh, I also wanna be clear on, on, on one thing. The social equity program that new York’s gonna be building out is not contingent upon these fees. Um, we will have a social equity program, a well funded social equity program with, with, or without those fees. Uh, I think there’s no world in which we, we, uh, launch our legal industry, um, based around, uh, whether or not these larger cannabis companies are.

[00:39:56] Pay a certain amount of money to, to transition over from, from medical. [00:40:00] And it, it, it it’s untenable. I wouldn’t be able to, to build out and plan a program. Now, if that was the case. And so, um, especially, you know, talking about just the size of the, the amount of money that we need for our social equity program, you know, this is a state that just passed a 220 billion annual budget, um, 20 million.

[00:40:19] Like I, if, if, um, no, I, I, I, I I’ll stop there, but I I’m gonna say. We will proceed with the social equity plan and a program with, or without that fee. Any

[00:40:31]Bryan Fields: concerns that you need, the scale that the MSOs can bring to the table in, in order to help drive down the prices of the, the product so that

[00:40:40]Damian Fagon: when an

[00:40:40]Bryan Fields: everyday consumer is making their decision, that the price is somewhat comparable between the, the traditional market and then the legal market.

[00:40:47] No.

[00:40:49]Kellan Finney: What about the experience that they bring in terms of managing the, the metric software? And, um, like there is a definite skill set associated with cultivating high quality cannabis, [00:41:00] but there’s a whole nother skill associated with putting in place systems that provide. Optimal functionality for these organizations.

[00:41:09] So that experience that they’ve had managing metric and all those kind of nuances associated with the business, is there an advantage that that could potentially bring?

[00:41:18]Damian Fagon: Uh, no, I don’t. I don’t think so. I, so just to be clear, the MSOs will absolutely be allowed like. Welcome to apply for licensing. Yeah.

[00:41:25] When it opens up next year where there’s, there’s absolutely no universe in which New York is gonna be blocking this opportunity from large scale operators, they will have to, you know, adapt their, their business models to whatever the regulatory environment that we end up creating here in New York. Uh, but we welcome that expertise.

[00:41:40] We welcome, um, experienced operators to come here and, and, and provide great product to new Yorkers. That, that absolutely, um, is a priority for us. Um, I will say that I think that, um, The cannabis industry’s hard. Uh, I, I, I know a lot of operators in, you know, I, I, I’ve mostly just been [00:42:00] a CBD farmer, you know, managing greenhouses and, you know, 10, 20 acre farms.

[00:42:04] Uh, but I’ve spent time out in Colorado, in California, visiting these facilities and, and seeing how these operations are run. And I’ve seen. $10 million grows in, in Colorado being managed by 1 21 year old kid. , you know, high school degree. , I’ve seen process, I’ve seen processing facilities also, you know, with millions of dollars of equipment with someone with, with basically a chemistry high, a high school understanding of chemistry.

[00:42:27] Um, and so I’m not gonna, you know, sit here and pretend that this is rocket science. I think that there are people in the cannabis industry across this country. That would like the rest of us to believe that this is an impossible thing to do without them, but it’s not it isn’t. Um, but again, like we’re not blocking opportunity for many of those, for any of those MSOs to, to come to New York and build, uh, uh, their, their businesses out here.

[00:42:48] You know, our, um, we, we love great weed in New York and if you can grow it, um, you’re gonna succeed here. So, I guess now the most important question

[00:42:57]Bryan Fields: is, is there a date in mind or most more [00:43:00] importantly, will I may be able to buy product here in New York before the end

[00:43:04]Damian Fagon: of the year. Man. I, I, I go to sleep at night and I dream about that.

[00:43:10] I really hope, I, I, I’m hopeful that we will have at least, uh, a couple stores with products on the shelves by the end of this year. Um, if not, you know, we’ll have a lot, you know, a do a dozen, a couple dozen, you know, up to 50, hopefully the first half, um, the first quarter of next year. Um, but yeah, the, the, the goal, the, the north star.

[00:43:33] The first legal sale of adult use cannabis happening by the end of this year, what percentage chance would you say that happens? It’s coin to coin to LL

[00:43:47]Bryan Fields: background’s really impressive. The third generation farmer background, international development. When you took the job, what did you get it? Right. And most importantly, what did you

[00:43:56]Damian Fagon: get wrong?

[00:43:57] Oh, man. I haven’t [00:44:00] had a chance to make the mistakes yet, but they’re coming um, I think, I think one thing that I’m, I’m gonna be really proud of and we’re gonna be announcing this this soon is, uh, we, we do plan on prioritizing those new Yorkers or, or, or working with those new Yorkers, um, who have illicit illicit cannabis experience, um, to help them, um, Learn compliance issues, help them, um, transition into the legal market.

[00:44:29] Um, that that is something that is, uh, near and dear to me. Uh, and it’s something that, um, you know, we have, uh, a lot of people working on right now to, to, to roll out in the next month or so. Um, you know, we have such, uh, talented and experienced, um, legacy market here in the state of new. People that have much like California, honestly, like, you know, upstate, we’ve got families that have been growing weed in, you know, the finger lakes, Rochester out, outside Buffalo for, for [00:45:00] generations.

[00:45:00] Uh, we’ve got, I, I personally know, uh, a guy in the south Bronx who grows, uh, the best cannabis I’ve ever smoked. Um, and he was, he’s doing it in, you know, 5,000 square foot basement in the Bronx. Uh, we have such talented logistics managers to that are, that are essentially running. What is already a billion multi-billion dollar industry, um, in the state and, uh, you know, of, of the huge priority of mine and is figuring out how to bring those guys, um, and women over to the legal Le this legal opportunity.

[00:45:37] And so, um, I Haven. Made any huge mistakes yet, but I will. Um, but that is something that, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m proud that, you know, we’ve got buy-in um, within the agency to, to, to, to, to start rolling out

[00:45:52]Bryan Fields: 20 years from now, we will look back and say that was bar Barrack. I can’t believe we did that in the cannabis industry.

[00:45:58] What is that? [00:46:00]

[00:46:01]Damian Fagon: Uh, limited Licens. I, I

[00:46:04]Bryan Fields: think,

[00:46:05]Damian Fagon: I think, um, limited licensing models markets are, are, are really, um, uh, I don’t know, kind of deeply UN un-American to me. Uh, I think that home grow should be a right for, for all Americans. Once we’ve got federal legalization. And, uh, I think everyone, um, who wants to start a cannabis business, um, 20 years from now, 10 years from now, five years from now, and it’s legal, they should be allowed to, um, there shouldn’t be these, you know, fees that keep people out there shouldn’t be these, um, you know, lobbyists, they need to hire just to access.

[00:46:42] A legal industry. It’s, it’s a mildly psychoactive plant that a lot of people love. And in a lot of these limited licensing states, you know, states where I have a lot of friends that are very frustrated. Um, they are very passionate about the plant and they just have nowhere to go with that enthusiasm.

[00:46:58] and it, it, it [00:47:00] upsets me a lot. And I think 20 years from now, we’re gonna look back and, and like, think that was insane. Like, I can’t believe we told people they couldn’t do something that we legalized, especially people that, you know, had all this passion and insight and enthusiasm and love for that. We kept them from that opportunity.

[00:47:16] And so, um, I. I hope to not see, uh, many more limited licensing markets, legal markets launched, but I assume there will be a, a few, I just, um, hope that it isn’t the reality a generation from now, since you

[00:47:32]Bryan Fields: been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?

[00:47:36]Damian Fagon: Say again, sorry. Since you’ve been

[00:47:37]Bryan Fields: in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconception?

[00:47:42]Damian Fagon: Uh, So make money uh, honestly I think, I think that is, that is something that, uh, is, is, is just like it’s. I don’t know why we don’t talk about that more pub. I mean, we do. I mean, increasingly people are talking about that pretty [00:48:00] publicly about how much money they’re losing, but there’s this, uh, you know, kind of speculative lottery driven.

[00:48:07] You know, I just gotta win a license. And then a Chiang, my performer tells me I’m a millionaire next year. It is so damaging to entrepreneurs, to the sector, to consumers, to, to, you know, uh, everyone to, to, to, um, you know, build up that myth that this is, uh, some sort of ticket to financial freedom. It. One of the toughest businesses you can get into.

[00:48:30] I mean, I know I’m preaching the choir on this, but, uh, I, I spent the last few years talking to, would be, can like people who want to be cannabis entrepreneurs in Brooklyn, in the south Bronx, upper Manhattan. And, you know, they were all, you know, talking to me about the opportunity in terms of like, if I can only get this license, I can only get this license.

[00:48:48] And I, it, it, it, it pains me to be the person to kill their dreams right before the legal industry is launch. But there is definitely a, a reality setting narrative we need to, [00:49:00] to, to, to push out there that, you know, if you open up the books for some of these super popular brands and operators out in California, Colorado, you’re not, you’re gonna see a lot of red.

[00:49:11] Um, and it, it it’s, it’s obviously not the fault of the operators. There’s so many other issues that the industry has in, in terms of two 80 E and just compliance requirements. But, um, yeah, I, I, I, I, I, it’s such a brutal industry and I, and I hope we’re more honest. Um, you know, in our conversations with, um, aspiring entrepreneurs about, uh, the nature of the opportunity, because, and, and, and I’ll add to that and say that like, as, as someone who, you know, cultivated cannabis, I don’t wanna do that again.

[00:49:41] It wasn’t for me. I, I love. I loved growing weed, uh, growing CBD. Um, but you know, it didn’t, it was a very difficult life. Like I was taking a train upstate to my farm and then, you know, I was out in my farm eight o’clock and then trying to get home. It, it, it’s an isolating life, you know, managing a grow in the middle of nowhere.

[00:49:59] It’s [00:50:00] it’s lonely life. It’s, it’s difficult. It’s it? And so being more honest about the opportunity, uh, I think is going to. Ultimately be a net positive for the industry going forward. Um, and that, you know, people who are truly passionate, truly committed to staying in this for the long haul, not just to flip a license or sell it or, or, um, you know, one up some, some other business to, to actually build a brand, build a business and commit to it over the long term.

[00:50:27] I think that will encourage those folks to, to join the industry for just more honest about the, the nature of the opportunity. That’s really well said. One of

[00:50:36]Bryan Fields: my favorite quotes that I’ve heard around the podcast is that an executive said that winning the license is the easiest thing about, about operating in cannabis.

[00:50:44]Damian Fagon: Yeah, that’s true. And then once you win, the nightmare begins, right? Yeah. Now the real struggle happens. All right. Dame,

[00:50:50]Bryan Fields: before we get predictions, we ask all of our guests, you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to bounce onto the next generation. What would it [00:51:00] be?

[00:51:02]Damian Fagon: Um, Oh, it’s a really profound question.

[00:51:08] Uh, man. Um, do it cuz you love it. Not cuz it’s profit. Not, not, cuz you’re gonna make money off of it. I mean that’s ultimately, uh, what I’d say is, you know, I went into the cannabis space to learn primarily because I wanted to, to eventually, you know, work with the plant in terms of economic development and policy and social.

[00:51:30] Um, and, uh, I, I, I went into it with that intention because I love that that intersection of economic development and, and cannabis and criminal justice reform. Um, but I, I, I, wasn’t in love with building a business and building a brand and, and, uh, you know, generating, uh, consistent sales and stuff like that.

[00:51:50] And so it wasn’t for me. And so, um, I, I, I really feel like, you know, the folks who are, are looking at this space, like if you love cannabis and, and, and, um, [00:52:00] Uh, you really love it. I mean, there’s gonna be a way for you to participate in it just don’t jump into it because it’s, you know, um, for lack of a better word, like the sexy new industry

[00:52:13]Bryan Fields: or prediction time, Damien years from new’s market, what does success look like for

[00:52:21]Damian Fagon: you?

[00:52:23] Um, a hundred years. Is that, is that the timeline five years? Five years. Five years. Sorry

[00:52:36] you wanna say that again? I, I couldn’t sure. Five

[00:52:38]Bryan Fields: years from now. What does success look like for you with, in

[00:52:42]Damian Fagon: regards to the New York market? Five years? You’re saying five years. Just, yeah. Okay. Uh, five years from now. Man, uh, uh, first it looks like, uh, you know, an industry that is, uh, without compare in any other legal state.

[00:52:58] I think that, [00:53:00] um, what we want to build here ultimately, um, is something that you can’t find elsewhere. And so, uh, you know, an example of that is. Um, Chinatown, right? Um, Chinatown is, you know, hundreds of years old. It’s a, it’s a staple of Manhattan. It’s a, it’s a incredibly vibrant community. That’s been there for many generations.

[00:53:20] Uh, and so often I think about what a dispensary looks like in Chinatown, uh, that is owned by, you know, a Chinese American family. That’s been there for generations. And so. Ultimately, you know, we’re looking at a dispensary that reflects those east Asian cultural traditions that, that also have, um, you know, some, uh, elements of cannabis, you know, intertwined with that history and that they, you know, are able to tell that cultural story that, that of their family and of their, of their traditions and of their people through that dispensary through cannabis.

[00:53:52] Now all of a sudden we’ve got people from all over the country, east Asian, you know, everyone coming to Chinatown to see what [00:54:00] cannabis looks like, uh, in, in, in that community. And even, you know, potentially people from east Asia coming out here and learning about cannabis, uh, and, and, and what it means to, to, to that community in Chinatown.

[00:54:10] And I really feel like that’s how we build. Um, you know, that’s, that’s the industry that New York kind of deserves, you know, this is one of the most culturally diverse, uh, cities in the world. And we in, in, in a legal industry that, you know, incorporates our family farms, upstate growing fireweed, selling it in, you know, retail stores that are owned and operated by, you know, people from that community, from that neighborhood who are telling their story through their.

[00:54:39] That’s, you know, ultimately how we build the most inclusive, uh, and you know, diverse and, and successful cannabis industry in the country.

[00:54:52]Kellan Finney: Uh, I mean, I agree with everything Damien said, I’m gonna take a little different, I think success for New York is going [00:55:00] to, uh, look like any other industry. That’s been, um, a staple, uh, in New York or globally, if you will. I think at the end of the day, New York has always been like the capital of the world.

[00:55:11] If you will. And cannabis, I don’t think will be any different. And so success will be globalized cannabis brands that were kind of founded and developed in that melting pot that is Manhattan and is New York. And I think that’s what success will be like. Is that a free market that provides the opportunity for people from any walk of life, to be able to start either a brand or a grow or any.

[00:55:38] Portion of the, the cannabis supply chain and be able to take

[00:55:41]Damian Fagon: it globally. What do you think? Absolutely. I, I fully agree with that and you know, I’ll just add to that and say that, like, what we’re creating here in New York is not some sort of exclusive. We’re creating a competitive landscape where people can compete fairly and on a level playing [00:56:00] field so that the best brands, the best cannabis wins.

[00:56:04] And I don’t think that, you know, with the exception of maybe, you know, the illicit, the legacy market in California, that that’s really happened nationwide. Uh, we haven’t seen that, you know, granular level of competition in the legal. That, that really forces companies to innovate, uh, to build new ways of consuming cannabis, to build new, um, products and, and grow new strains.

[00:56:25] And so I fully agree. I think that, you know, what the, the market that’s gonna, you know, mature here is gonna, it’s gonna influence what London looks like. It’s gonna influence what Berlin looks like. Yep. And, uh, exactly. We just gotta make sure that the brands that do win the, the companies that do win here, they, they earned that.

[00:56:41] You know what I mean? They fought for that. They. They innovated, they pivoted, they, they, they did everything they could. And, and that’s why they succeeded. Not because they had the biggest checkbook, but because they had the best ideas and that’s, that’s all we’re trying to do in New York. I love that. And that’s

[00:56:56]Bryan Fields: so exciting to hear that and to watch it unfold.

[00:56:58] Cause I, I think that’s the most [00:57:00] interesting part is that we’re going to get a live look at one of the best case studies of all time and, and watch how your team unrolls it out. And, and, and hopefully goes away with a lot of these Lacey stigma aspects that continue to play the industry. And one of the, the things that concerns me most though, would be, uh, the pricing standpoint, I think, as the market comes online, My biggest fear is that some of the older generation continues to hesitate with, uh, buying the products.

[00:57:26] And maybe they’re not the, the, the more pricing issues, but that’s my biggest internal worry is that from a pricing standpoint that the, it might push other people to outside market. But I guess we’ll see why is it unfold? But David, I gotta tip my health. I think what your team is doing. Um, we’ve had people come on and talk about New York, specifically as the market, to who aspire to, to become and ones that they look to as doing it the right way and backing it up with action.

[00:57:52] So I gotta tip my hat to you there. So for listeners, if they wanna get in touch, they wanna learn more about New York cannabis and they likely [00:58:00] wanna apply for

[00:58:00]Damian Fagon: jobs. Where can they find you, uh, cannabis dot N y.gov? All of our information is up there. Subscribe to our, you know, email updates, uh, tap in, follow us on Instagram and Twitter.

[00:58:12] Um, there, we’re gonna be announcing a lot, a lot of stuff, including the regulations over the next few months. And you really want to see on top of that, we’re gonna have a very intense and collaborative public comment period where, you know, You know, the world can see the regulations for what the industry that we want to build.

[00:58:29] They can actually, you know, write to us and suggest, uh, changes that they, that they recommend. We’re we’re gonna, we’re gonna listen to stakeholder input, including MSOs, including businesses outside of New York. Um, and so, you know, tap in on our website, uh, to stay, to stay, uh, on top of that. And, um, yeah.

[00:58:45] Thank you guys for having me. Yeah. Appreciate this was

[00:58:47]Bryan Fields: fun. Looking forward to doing this again and seeing, uh,

[00:58:50]Damian Fagon: how the market’s kind of unfolded. Yeah. Check in again in a year. It could be, uh, either the greatest thing ever or just a complete nightmare. No, probably the greatest.

[00:58:59]Bryan Fields: So [00:59:00] for

[00:59:00]Damian Fagon: the time, yep.

Fall is upon us, and with it comes harvest season for both the hemp and cannabis industries. The hemp CBD industry has slowly become a synthetic minor cannabinoids market, whereas the cannabis industry continues to be dominated by flower. Due to this changing environment, we have determined different information that could provide your organization with significantly more benefits. Over the course of the next three months, we will revamp our trends section to fit the changing environment. For instance, when looking at the derivatives market for the hemp industry, the proliferation of THC-O and HHC has skyrocketed. This is less than a year after Delta 8 was banned in several states. The cat and mouse game between struggling hemp manufacturers and regulators shows no sign of stopping as the myriad of new minors continues to make their way into new consumer products. Prices for both HHC and THC-O increased from last month, showing signs that the demand for these CBD synthetic derivatives is starting to rise. Only time will tell how the battle between manufacturers and regulators will play out in regards to the minor cannabinoid market.

Kellen Finney, Eighth Revolution

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