Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Matha Figaro, CEO, and Founder of Cannpowerment, to discuss:
Culinary Edibles
Advancing the industry by helping others
From legacy to legal
And so much more
About Matha: With An Associate of Arts and Sciences (A.A.S.) degree in Baking and Pastry Arts from Le Cordon Bleu Institute of Culinary Arts Graduating Class of 2010, ButACake takes the CAKE in 100% handmade from scratch treats. ButACake is a cannabis brand specializing in educating and feeding consumers on the benefits of alternative cannabis consumption. Click the photo above for more.
#Cannabis #CannabisChef #Cannabiscommunity
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev), we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.
8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00] What’s
[00:00:02]Bryan Fields: up guys? Welcome back to that episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields, and with me as always is Ke Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, Mata Figueroa, co-founder and CEO of Can Empowerment Mata. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing
[00:00:13]Matha: today? So well, so well, really excited to be here.
[00:00:16] Thanks for having me,
[00:00:17]Bryan Fields: guys. Stoked to dive in. Kelin, how are you doing? I’m good. Doing really well?
[00:00:20]Kellan Finney: Yeah. Yeah, I’m doing well. I’m excited to talk to Mata and, uh, another east coaster, I
[00:00:26]Bryan Fields: guess. Right. SS what’s, for the record, your
[00:00:29]Matha: location. I’m in Jersey City, New Jersey. Born and raised in Jersey. First generation American.
[00:00:35] Let’s go, let’s go
[00:00:36]Bryan Fields: another, let’s go another East coast for the map. So mata, for our listeners that un freely about you. Can you give it all a background about yourself?
[00:00:43]Matha: Yeah, so, uh, my name’s Mata figure, Like I said before, first generation. My family came here from Haiti. Uh, just so really lucky, honestly, to be here.
[00:00:53] I started a brand called Butter Cake back in 2015, and I was just slinging really good butter cakes. I’m a pastry chef by [00:01:00] trade. Got to enjoy working for Whole Foods for a few years in management, so that was really fun. But then I just got tired of it, so I tried my own business making butter. Uh, about a few months into doing that, a woman came up to me and she was like, Hey, I gotta go through chemo.
[00:01:14] Can you turn your cake into an edible for me? And I was like, Hell no. Because it’s 2015. I’m not go to jail for your ass. Uhuh, there’s just no way She comes back a few months later and she’s like, Come on, but a cake I really like. I think you should do this, you should do this. And she just really encouraged me and I was like, Okay, fine.
[00:01:31] I’ll practice on you, but we gotta keep this a secret and. She didn’t keep it a secret. She shared with all her friends, she shared with her family and like it kind of just took up and, and blew up from there. And now here I am, eight years later, uh, I applied for a license in the state of New Jersey under my business called Cann Powerment, in which we are really excited to be conditionally licensed.
[00:01:53] We’re gonna be producing ButA cAKE and we’ll be producing for other people with awesome brands that wanna get into the market.
[00:01:58] out here
[00:01:59]Bryan Fields:[00:02:00] Many congratulations. So I guess my, my first question was, was that your first experience dabbling between the intersection of cannabis infused cooking
[00:02:06]Matha: for the public? Yeah. .
[00:02:09]Bryan Fields: And what about for yourself?
[00:02:10]Matha: No, I’ve been a little stoner probably since I was born. And it, And
[00:02:14]Bryan Fields: it was through cooking was how you consumed, or was it through
[00:02:17]Matha: Ry? Oh, I, so I was actually a smoker when I first started. I had herniated three discs in my lower back in my chef life. Yeah. And it sucked and it turned me into a vegetable for a few months.
[00:02:28] And I was just on the couch doing all kinds of opioids that doctors prescribed. And finally my mom and and a friend of mine were like, Yo, we don’t even recognize you. Your personality’s gone. And when my mom disappeared, my friend was like, Try some, Try some of these edibles, try some weed. And then I kind of just was like, All right.
[00:02:44] But I never thought it was gonna be a business. I never thought it was gonna lead me here. Like me and my personal consumption is. It was just like, smoke some weed, my back hurts, smoke some weed, doing yoga. And then I started doing the edibles and now I’m just, I love it for all the health reasons [00:03:00] I’m able to do sugar free, gluten free, vegan, all kinds of cool stuff.
[00:03:03] So eating weed is my preferred way.
[00:03:05] now
[00:03:06]Kellan Finney: What’s your favorite, uh, form factor to bake with? Is it butter or is it a tincture? What.
[00:03:11]Matha: Ooh. Honestly, the more that science continues to develop really awesome ways for me to infuse the more excited I get. Um, I, I recently came across a company called a Zuka, and they do like sugars and, and all kind of cool things like that.
[00:03:25] So, um, I feel like lately these days, that’s been my favorite thing.
[00:03:30]Bryan Fields: And how, how, so how like for, for new consumers that are trying to get interested, but are petrified of, let’s say the infused cursing, how, how do new consumers can feel comfortable kind of adapting the new space? I would
[00:03:41]Matha: say do your research.
[00:03:42] Make sure you like, talk to your chef beforehand if you have access to that person. Always start low and slow. I don’t care how good it tastes. Have some self-control. , take a little bite. Wait 20 minutes, see how you feel and take it. So what other
[00:03:57]Bryan Fields: products are, uh, uh, involved with Butter Cake? [00:04:00] Obviously we, we, we got the grand reveal on the naming behind that, which was definitely one of my questions.
[00:04:03] But what other products are, are, are in the arsenal? Um,
[00:04:06]Matha: so butter cake. Shockingly enough, our number one seller are our gummies. Um, we have a new form factor out into the market right now. It’s just like the, uh, Listerine strips. You put it on your tongue and it starts to dissolve and you get an effect. So that’s just really, really fun.
[00:04:21] We’re doing it with hemp deriv delta to eight right now, uh, while we wait for the license to come through so that we could push it into the market with straight up THC the way everybody wants it.
[00:04:31]Bryan Fields: What,
[00:04:31]Kellan Finney: uh, how
[00:04:32]Bryan Fields: did that idea come to.
[00:04:34]Matha: Uh, so in New Jersey, they decided to make their reg regulations for the adult use market so that we can’t have baked goods.
[00:04:41] Um, I’m on a special task force to change that, by the way. So new rules are on the way. Thankfully, , thankfully, but when they said no baked goods, and I was like, Well, damn. I guess there’s no butter kicks for New Jersey. What else am I gonna do? And I just wrecked my brain back and forth. My childhood friend since third grade, Jimmy, he’s also my business partner and he’s had [00:05:00] incredible experience, um, in consumer packaged goods with a company out in Germany.
[00:05:04] Um, and then when I told him like, Yo, we got no bake goods, but I really love doing my tincture. I really love doing my oil spray. Let’s find something cool that people could do use through the mouth. And that’s how we landed on the strips.
[00:05:17]Bryan Fields: Why, Why no big goods.
[00:05:19]Matha: Uh, cuz then you gotta get the health department involved in New Jersey.
[00:05:24] Every municipality works as its own state. So now we’re talking about the CRC dealing with 500 and something different health departments on top of the health department for the entire state. So it’s just a lot, um, for them to try to handle when they’re just trying to open up the market to begin with.
[00:05:39] So that’s,
[00:05:42]Kellan Finney: I like how understanding you are about it. , I, I’m the one that’s a very cordial
[00:05:45]Bryan Fields: answer. , I’m about to throw a fit in the corner over here. I’m upset that I can’t be getting those products,
[00:05:51]Matha: so Wow. I feel like I’m so understanding about it. Cause I’m a legacy operator. Just because they don’t get it doesn’t mean I don’t get it yet.
[00:05:58] Yeah, that’s So I’m just [00:06:00] gonna help them get it so that we can all lead, do
[00:06:03]Bryan Fields: it , but get it. So I know Butter Cake’s, one of the brands underneath the umbrella. What else is the primary goal of Camp
[00:06:09]Matha: Powerment? Honestly, we are looking for underrepresented individuals. We’re looking for the little guys, you know, the MSOs.
[00:06:16] They could do the cookies and all that good stuff, but we are really just looking to empower. People that thought that they couldn’t do what I’m doing right now, and people that don’t have two and a half million dollars to get a license. You know, we really wanna just lower the barriers of entries so we can make some field gummies or some Kellen cakes, whatever.
[00:06:33]Bryan Fields: I like it. I like it. I know one of your missions is diversify the products on a retails shelf. Can you kind of expand on that?
[00:06:39]Matha: Yeah, I pulled up to California Palm Springs, which I should have assumed wasn’t gonna be the most , most diverse place. But I shot my shot, you know, and I asked, I said, Hey, which one of these brands is women?
[00:06:50] Made no answer. Okay, fine. Which one of these is black owned? No answer. And I was like, Damn, if I’m gonna be a manufacturer, I need to make sure that every [00:07:00] single dispensary can at least answer that question for somebody that walks into
[00:07:04]Bryan Fields: the. I think that’s so important. But I guess my question to you is, for a consumer who wants to support a brand like that but isn’t sure which one is owned by those individuals, how, how, how do they figure that out?
[00:07:14] Cause if a Bud tender doesn’t know there could be a brand on the shelf, but how, how do we kind of align the information with the individual?
[00:07:21]Matha: Ooh, woo. Wow. I don’t know. Maybe we should do something together, Brian, where we just put all the information up where all the black own businesses,
[00:07:30]Bryan Fields: Let me
[00:07:31]Matha: like the directory.
[00:07:32] Yeah, let’s get it. Drop it on the dime every week. We’ll just do a quick list. Here’s five black owned businesses you could support. Five minority owned, women known lgbtq, own all of it.
[00:07:41]Bryan Fields: Yeah. Cuz I think that’s such an important thing, right? Cuz people do wanna support certain types of businesses when they go in and sometimes there’s an information disconnect, especially maybe it could be that one Budd tender that doesn’t know, but four others do.
[00:07:51] And that’s one of the biggest challenges that, that I’ve seen is that there’s like the the missing gap of information transfer between the individuals.
[00:07:59]Matha:[00:08:00] Agreed. I’m, I’m gonna attempt to solve that
[00:08:02]Bryan Fields: sticker. Maybe I’m just kind of brainstorming out loud
[00:08:06]Matha: certification. It’s gotta be different
[00:08:08]Kellan Finney: in every state though.
[00:08:09] You know, It’s gonna be Ellen’s tough one, right?
[00:08:11]Bryan Fields: What? I’m surprised this is true. Um, so a question for you is, I’ve heard you say I’m gonna put my mask on first and then help the others around me.
[00:08:20]Matha: Yeah. Why? So when I say my mask on first, I’m talking about But A cake. You know, I started that. It’s completely legacy operation.
[00:08:29] Um, and not for nothing. Being a legacy operator is hard as fuck. You cannot walk into a bank right now with a duffle bag of $200,000 of cash saying, Okay, I wanna buy a house now. I wanna buy a car now. Like life right now, the way it is, is not what it used to be for, for legacy operators back in the day.
[00:08:45] And so for me, it really just means like, Let me put the framework together to figure out how regular everyday people could get involved in this industry. And once I do that, I’m just gonna pass it on, pass it out, give it out. I’m, I’m not interested in gatekeeping, I’m not [00:09:00] interested in making people pay, uh, me for, for, you know, templates and guidelines and stuff like that.
[00:09:05] I really just wanna make it as easy and equitable as possible for whoever wants to be involved to get.
[00:09:11]Bryan Fields: Yeah, it’s, it’s so important to have someone like yourself trailblazing from the front because some people are just a little more hesitant until they see someone else kind of pushing forward. Not everyone’s meant to be the alpha to top down the trees and say, Hey, like, I’m gonna handle it first.
[00:09:23] You guys can follow me. Uh, I’m gonna help everyone through. That’s right. It also is,
[00:09:27]Kellan Finney: it’s also more genuine that you’re doing it yourself and not charging other people to, to help. You know what I mean?
[00:09:32]Matha: Yeah. Yeah. The first time a consultant hit me up when I decided I was gonna go on this journey, he was like, Oh, $50,000 up front.
[00:09:40] And I was like, What, What? What? To consult me to tell me that I need to get a lawyer that’s gonna charge me another 30, 40, 50,000 on top of that. That’s crazy. Those are
[00:09:50]Bryan Fields: billable hours too. Yeah.
[00:09:56] So social equity needs to be collected on deals on paper, [00:10:00] not just verbally. Uh, obviously that’s a, the massive sticking point for so many to stop saying the words and start doing the actions. Yeah. You know, what can, what can companies do to do that?
[00:10:09]Matha: Shit, when it comes down to revenue splits, it’s not 50 50.
[00:10:12] If you are a business, a manufacturer, an mso, whatever, and you’re in a position where you can help somebody else get in, why are we not doing 51 49 in favor of the social equity applicant? We’re not 50 50s s. No more predatory practices. You know, we just need more, um, legal people as well to really help guide us to make sure that we’re not falling into these practices and business owners.
[00:10:35] It’s time to speak up. Don’t just sign the deal for the sake of doing a deal, because then we make no difference as a collective.
[00:10:41]Bryan Fields: I love it. Stoners make great blood donors. True or false?
[00:10:45]Matha: Hell yeah. That’s true. Very true. Why? So there, for some reason, there’s like this stigma out there that if you are a cannabis consumer, stoner, weed friendly person, that you cannot donate [00:11:00] blood.
[00:11:00] And that’s actually not true at all. With Covid being here, we’re actually finding ourselves, um, in the United States in the first blood crisis ever. We lost a lot of people, um, clearly to Covid d and then with. Putting all of us inside and having a shutdown and being so virtual, it’s hard for blood banks and for, for, uh, hospitals, the American Red Cross, places like that, to really tap into people and start getting more blood.
[00:11:24] So now more people are sick, less people are donating. We have a massive shortage and this is a huge opportunity for the cannabis industry to get in and get into donating. Cuz you know, we’re, we’re fucking great people as stoners. Why?
[00:11:38]Bryan Fields: You
[00:11:38]Kellan Finney: think it, uh, helps with the actual blood donation part that like, you know, like you smoke weed dries get red, it’s a vasodilator, so maybe it opens your blood vessels up, makes it easier to poke
[00:11:47]Bryan Fields: from a possibly.
[00:11:49]Matha: Um, I’m not a doctor by any means. Me neither, Me neither ever associated with the fda, but I’m pretty sure with more research being a cannabis consumer [00:12:00] and a blood donor has to be a positive thing. I
[00:12:03]Bryan Fields: agree. Yeah. Mata, if you were to start over or start a competitor, which part of your business would be most difficult for you to replicate?
[00:12:15] Ooh.
[00:12:18]Matha: If I were to start over, which would, What would be the most difficult thing to replicate? To be honest, I recently thought about creating another brand, and I haven’t actually pulled the trigger on that because I’m realiz. How hard it is to actually start a brand. Butter cake was something I think I got lucky with.
[00:12:38] I was already making butter cakes. Butter cake. The name just fell into my lap. It, it all worked. Um, I don’t know if I could recreate that magic
[00:12:46]Bryan Fields: twice. I think you could, and I think that there’s. Behind every piece of luck, there’s putting yourself in the right positions to be successful. And I think if you continue to place yourself in positions to be successful, luck seems to find [00:13:00] you, right?
[00:13:00] I think that’s kind of one of the things is people kind of attract good luck and that involves putting in the work and hustling and making sure you’re getting things done. Cuz if you weren’t producing the products, probably be really hard to start a brand behind bought
[00:13:11]Matha: a cake. That’s very true. It is
[00:13:13] very
[00:13:13]Bryan Fields: true.
[00:13:14] What is one product request that you get a lot but you’ll never.
[00:13:18]Matha: Oh my God. Like these designer bong cakes or something. I’m not a cake decorator by any means. There’s like this trend going on where people are decorating cakes and physically turning them into bong. So you could smoke your birthday cake.
[00:13:33] Please don’t hit me up for that cuz I’m never doing it. What about a wedding cake? Nah.
[00:13:39]Bryan Fields: I, I did see the, the bond cake that looked just outrageous. Do you share that too? Or is it like a one hitter for like, one person just like hits this?
[00:13:49]Matha: Yeah. I would imagine if it’s my birthday and my cake, it’s a one hitter
[00:13:57] But yeah. Cake decorating is, is, That’s the no, for me, I [00:14:00] don’t like decorating.
[00:14:01]Bryan Fields: What is one factor statistic operating in the cannabis industry that would shock other individual? Shocking.
[00:14:12]Matha: I don’t think I know. I don’t think I know a sta that would be shocking to the industry because I feel like this industry is so new. Everything that we’re doing is either so shockingly good or so shockingly bad. , ,
[00:14:25]Bryan Fields: what’s the future roadmap?
[00:14:28]Matha: The future roadmap. Ah, man. I’m hoping for interstate commerce.
[00:14:31] Near term, interstate commerce would be awesome, especially on the east coast. We see California and Washington figured it out, so it would be awesome to see, you know, Tri-State, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, let’s throw Connecticut in there as well. They’re coming online. If we could get some interstate commerce that would be sick and that would set us up for an even better future when federal.
[00:14:52]Bryan Fields: Agreed. 20 years from now, we’ll look back and say, That was barbaric. I can’t believe we did that in the cannabis industry. What is that? [00:15:00]
[00:15:01]Matha: 20 years from now, I’m gonna be like, I can’t believe I paid a municipality $20,000 for a non-refundable application fee for me to even operate there. That’s crazy. That is crazy.
[00:15:13] Yep. And 20 years from now, I’m probably gonna ask for my money back. . .
[00:15:18]Bryan Fields: The government always gets theirs first. That’s right. Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass onto the next generation, what would it be?
[00:15:32]Matha: Listen to yourself first.
[00:15:35] Listen to yourself first. I feel like if I had listened. To the people that are the most important in my life, my mom, my dad, my siblings, if I really had listened to them. I would’ve went to college. I would’ve got a four year degree. I’d be sitting behind a desk working some nine to five corporate job that I freaking hate, but I never listened to them.
[00:15:55] I didn’t listen to them. When they told me weed wasn’t an option, I didn’t listen to them. When they told me [00:16:00] culinary wasn’t a career, and I damn sure didn’t listen to them. When they told me But A Cake was the stupidest name they ever heard. So , if I could tell anybody, any kind of advice, listen to your.
[00:16:11] self Follow whatever it is that you wanna do. Everybody else that doesn’t agree they’ll, they’ll either find out later down the line that they should have given you better advice or they just won’t be involved and you’ll be happy anyway.
[00:16:24]Bryan Fields: Love it. Prediction time, maa, what else can be done to help legacy operators feel comfortable converting to the legal market?
[00:16:36]Matha: The thing that could be done is that we need our law enforcement to. Threatening us. That’s really what it is. Like the only reason why I felt comfortable putting my face in my name and my, you know, identity out there was because my law team and advisors. They promised me that they had my back, but outside of me trusting them, I would’ve never done it.
[00:16:59] So if [00:17:00] our, you know, people that make the laws, the rules and regulations could say, Hey, legacy operator, we get it. Please, you wanna con you want to switch over to the legal side, we won’t punish you for that.
[00:17:12]Bryan Fields: Ke I
[00:17:13]Kellan Finney: agree. I also think maybe lowering that, the barrier to make that transit. Uh, model was talking’s 2.5
[00:17:20]Bryan Fields: million.
[00:17:22] Even if you were a legacy operator, like I doubt you show up
[00:17:25]Kellan Finney: to the capital building with 2.5 million in cash and you’re like, Hey, can I fill out my application now?
[00:17:30]Bryan Fields: Yeah, exactly. It’s just not how it’s gonna work.
[00:17:32]Kellan Finney: So I think lowering the barrier to entry is probably the most important aspect
[00:17:35]Bryan Fields: associated with that.
[00:17:36] What do you think, Ryan? I think that there’s so many different things that maybe could be helpful, but it’s so hard to tell because each person feels differently and each government operates so differently. So I think kind of making it easier for people to understand how the situation operates, right?
[00:17:50] Instead of having to pay these massive fines or licensing opportunities to the government in order to submit your application. If we can lower the barriers of entry to make things easier and [00:18:00] cleaner for people to understand how to. I think it’ll help people feel more comfortable. I think one of the reasons a lot of people feel distrust with Gartner is cause they don’t trust them because they, they don’t really operate the way we think that they should.
[00:18:10] And maybe that’s a personal approach, but at the end of the day, I think that’s gonna be a big challenge and hopefully we can find ways to overcome that to allow people to continue to move in the right direction.
[00:18:21]Matha: That’s right. That is absolutely right. Also, I’d like to. There’s no correlation between legacy operating and being wealthy
[00:18:30] So people think that for some reason, that like if you’re a legacy operator, you’ve been selling drugs legally for so long. Weed specifically, that you’re like super freaking rich. It’s not really the case. Only like 2% of us are probably that rich . Yeah.
[00:18:45]Bryan Fields: Yeah. World. So, Martha, for our listeners, they wanna get in touch, they wanna learn more, and they wanna buy butter cake products.
[00:18:51] Where can they? Oh
[00:18:53]Matha: man, I’m all over the internet. Instagram, Twitter, but cake. It’s B U T A cake. We’re on butter [00:19:00] cake.shop for the legacy stuff. Butter cake wellness.com. For the legal stuff you can always Google me mata. Figu out. I’m everywhere.
[00:19:07]Bryan Fields: We’ll could open the shots. Thanks for taking the time.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Max Simon CEO of Green Flower, to discuss:
Adopting universities to cannabis education
Why trained employees stay longer
Certified Ganjier Program
And so much more
About Green Flower:
Green Flower is the industry standard for cannabis education and training, working with industry leaders since 2014 to create best-in-class training programs for individuals and businesses.
About Ganjier Program: Just as the wine, cheese, beer, chocolate, and cigar industries have highly-trained, certified experts qualified to distinguish the nuanced qualities of their respective products, the burgeoning cannabis industry is in dire need of its own class of educated and certified professionals that help consumers find and enjoy products that exceed their expectations.
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys? Welcome back to the episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields, and with me as always is Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a super special guest, Max Simon’s, CEO of Green Flower Max, thanks for taking the time. How you
[00:00:13]Max Simon: doing today? Good to be with you guys. Looking forward to this.
[00:00:16]Bryan Fields: Yeah, looking forward to dive.
[00:00:17] Kellen, how are you doing?
[00:00:18]Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. Looking forward to chatting about, uh, education. I think it’s a really important topic and it’s, it’s needed, uh, for the
[00:00:24]Bryan Fields: industry. How are you, Brian? I’m doing well. It’s desperately needed this industry. And Max, for the record, I know you are located in California, but I know your team is just repeated across the United States, so I don’t know if we can put that one up for the West Coast.
[00:00:37] What do you think, Kelly? I think it’s a
[00:00:38]Kellan Finney: West coast, right? Yeah. Incorporated in California.
[00:00:41]Bryan Fields: Yeah, I guess that’s fair. We’ll, we’ll give Max on the West Coast. So Max, for our listeners that are unfamiliar with you, can you give it a little background about
[00:00:48]Max Simon: yourself? Yeah, personally, um, I’ve been a long time can medical cannabis patient, I u use it daily for adhd and it’s actually very regimented for me.
[00:00:59] So it’s a, [00:01:00] it’s a medicine that I use very methodically and have for a long time. Um, and my, my personal background, I should say my career background is all, all in digital education. I. I spent nine years building Deepak Chopra’s business, which was a, uh, an education business around mind body medicine and yoga and meditation.
[00:01:17] And we were able to, you know, tr train th thousands and thousands of meditation teachers and kind of mainstream many of these mind body medicine principles into the world. Um, and have then was a serial entrepreneur after that, did many different businesses, um, over the years and then found my way to the cannabis industry in.
[00:01:37] 13, where I was one of the first consultants of a vape pen company here in California, and that opened my eyes to the fact that this industry was just gonna be an enormous. Enormous industry that had so much potential and you know, nobody really knew the realities of it. Um, there was just all the stigma and, and the bs.
[00:01:58] And so I [00:02:00] realized from my background we were gonna need, you know, well educated, well trained people. And, and over the years, green flour has stepped up to kind of fill that need.
[00:02:08]Bryan Fields: Was there always the idea that the intersection between the educational background and cannabis would merge, Like take us through the origin?
[00:02:14] When did that idea kind of spark for
[00:02:16]Max Simon: you? No, no. I, I was, it was 2013 when I was, um, so my last business was basically helping other experts move into online businesses and, and so I worked. Thousands of different experts to help them build their businesses and, and kind of create the infrastructure to move online into online education.
[00:02:37] And, and I was just, quite frankly, he bored of helping other people build their businesses, you know, even though it was a successful business, I got. Tired of helping other people. So I was really looking for like, okay, what’s the next thing that I specifically wanna build? And that’s when I got this cannabis consulting gig, which, you know, was so interesting to me because I was a personal consumer for all these years, but just didn’t, [00:03:00] didn’t know a damn thing about the, this kind of legal industry that was developing it.
[00:03:04] But in doing this consulting gig in 2013 in California, I just saw. Man, you know, this is an absolutely miraculous plant and an industry that’ll be way bigger than people are anticipating it. And with my background in education, you know, people are, need to understand, there need some, some credibility and some trust to, to be able to participate in this sector.
[00:03:25] So that’s, that’s what brought us to Green Flower. Was there any like
[00:03:28]Kellan Finney: one moment where you were doing that consulting gig where you were like, Wow, this is exactly where education needs to be brought into this space? When you’re looking at those manufacturers
[00:03:36]Max Simon: back in California, I mean, truth be told, even back then, it was more just seeing the writing on the wall for how big the industry was gonna be.
[00:03:45] Um, and, and so I got initially excited not so much by the, the, the mission more by the business opportunity early on and, and I just said, you know, I was very early in mind body medicine and spirituality. And we built an [00:04:00] enormous industry or enormous business, you know, being the, the, the credibility source, the, the trusted source of information.
[00:04:07] And so it started off very entrepreneurial to me, but in the, in the very beginning we started to, you know, really interview the doctors and interview the scientists and interview the cultivators. And that’s when I. Wow, this is so much more complex, sophisticated, There’s so much more to learn than anybody has any clue of, and that’s what really helped me realize the importance of the education side is it’s not just a, a great business opportunity, it’s that this is really complex and, and misunderstood, and we really need to do a good job of educating people to, to um, lift up the.
[00:04:44] I tip
[00:04:45]Bryan Fields: my hat to you because early on, I mean, 2013 online education was still kind of new. So to take in an approach where cannabis is, the online education is a very, very new approach. I I, I tip my hats. You there? So then what are the first steps, right? Take us through the macro concept, those first [00:05:00] steps.
[00:05:00] When you’re building out an educational platform, it’s a big, big burden to take on that approach. There’s constant changes. There’s, there’s various roles. Where do you start and how do you get.
[00:05:10]Max Simon: And, and to answer that question, I’ll say, you know, green flour has zigzagged a lot over the years. And, and I would say that from 2014, when we founded the company really up until 2018, um, we really tried a bunch of stuff, right?
[00:05:28] We tried stuff and so we tried stuff from doing, you know, I produced the first Cannabis Health Summit online. Which had like 30,000 people attend to it. It was nuts, you know, an enormous reach. Um, so we did, you know, online summits in, in different capacities. I did the Cannabis Health Summit, the Cannabis Business Summit, the Cannabis Entrepreneurs Summit, the C P D Summit, you know, so we did like these online educational forums.
[00:05:52] We produced a lot of kind of short form. Content, um, where you were, you know, sitting down with experts and talking to ’em about [00:06:00] different content or different subjects in the industry. So we did like a lot of random stuff. Um, and some of it stuck, some of it didn’t stick. Some of it was exciting and some of it was just a total dud, but really it was like 20, like I said, around kind of 2018 when I started to realize like, okay, the, the professional education.
[00:06:21] Side of this where you’re training people to be professionals and succeed in the industry is where we were finding business traction and why, where we were finding kind of that, that product to market fit. And so we started to double down into building, you know, really professional based education programs around that time and, and that’s when the business really started to gain its level of traction that it has today.
[00:06:46]Kellan Finney: What was the first, uh, professional level that you guys built from like a training?
[00:06:50]Max Simon: I mean, funny and to say this, but we did like a, a cannabis licensing program in the beginning where we were working with some of the, at the time, the [00:07:00] only people doing real license consultation that was winning those licenses.
[00:07:03] And so we did like a program on on getting license cert licensure, which was successful. And actually our first real smash hit was when we did the cannabis fundamentals program and it was to train people in cannabis fundamentals. For participating in the industry. And I remember we released that program and sold like seven or 800 units, like right out of the gate.
[00:07:24] And that was when we really realized like, Oh, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s working better than anything we’ve done to date.
[00:07:31]Bryan Fields: Is, is there a certain demographic that kind of tends towards this? Is it, is it the older generation? It’s the younger generation, like cannabis is all over. Is there a certain generation that tends to, to spew one
[00:07:40]Max Simon: way?
[00:07:41] Well, so that’s a great question and, and I think it probably is best answered by how the business has developed because there are definitely people that skewed to different stuff. So today the business has these three limbs. One limb is that we, um, partner with colleges and universities to power their cannabis programs.
[00:07:59] Um, [00:08:00] Continuing education department, meaning it’s through the kind of workforce development department where lots of those people are, tend to be, um, over 30 and in fact, over 40 is usually the medium. They’re people that come from other professions or other industries, but now they’re looking to get into cannabis.
[00:08:18] And so the, the, the college and university channel serves that market, you know, the older. Kind of job seeker who’s trying to transition into this industry from existing experience or existing background in other spaces. Um, and we’re finding a lot of traction in that space, you know? Then we have ganger, which is our cannabis sommelier program, and that program tends to attract hardcore.
[00:08:42] Cannabis lovers. I mean, at the end of the day, and, and it’s split between people that are in the industry already and working in all sorts of roles. I mean, we have people in retail and cultivation and management all the way up to the CEOs. Um, you know, and, and then the other half of the people is people that have been smoking for [00:09:00] 30 years and now they’re looking to have something that validates their level of, of understanding and knowledge about.
[00:09:06] You know the sophisticated elements of cannabis, the more nuanced connoisseur elements of cannabis . So that program appeals to that. And then we have the third limit of the business that is becoming the training backbone of the cannabis operators themselves. Meaning we’re training their employees and that, you know, is getting, giving us a crazy look into who works inside the industry because you’re seeing, you know, everybody.
[00:09:29] In that space from, from their new hires all the way up to their leadership. And you know, we’re touching kind of everybody in that domain that works inside the industry. So it’s a business that touches all these different people in different ways based upon the channel. They’re kind of coming through. I wanna go
[00:09:44]Kellan Finney: back to, uh, the university program.
[00:09:47] How challenging was it to first to get your first program with, uh, a college university because it’s cannabis? And how much has that conversation changed in the last four
[00:09:56]Max Simon: years? It was [00:10:00] so hard to crack that nut. Um, I mean, I I, it’s funny cuz now today, so we have 30, as of today, 33. College and university partnership.
[00:10:10] Congratulations. Wow. It’s been a while. You know, it just announced, I just announced a whole series of ’em, and we’re gonna end the year probably like closer to 40 if you can believe it. Um, which is, which boggles my mind because in, from, you know, I started approaching schools in 2017 is when, when I personally started going to schools and, and you know, the response was some version.
[00:10:32] No, um, that sounds really interesting. Snicker, snicker, we’ll run it through the PPO and then, you know, go away, um, to, this does sound really interesting, but we’re gonna get everybody in our university involved in the conversation to see if we can get everybody comfortable in it. And, and so then it almost always got killed at that point because, you know, you had 50 different people’s opinions about cannabis, which doesn’t go well.
[00:10:56] Um, and it was, it was impossible. I mean, quite frankly, it was just not [00:11:00] working at all. We kept going because of the fact that, you know, most people don’t know this if you’re not studied in, in the sector, but, but there’s thousands and thousands of colleges and universities across the country. You know, their business is education.
[00:11:14] So if you’re in the education business, it’s, it’s one of the, the best channels to participate in. And what I learned is that once you. Kind of get a few people on board. You know, schools are kind of like sheep. They, they end up following the pack. And so we knew that if we could get a few of these over the line, it should.
[00:11:33] Quote and Quote create this domino effect. And so we started in 2017, got laughed out of every room all the way until 2019. Um, years of approaching schools and going through this process and getting really, like, we got really, really close with one school and then the president at Signature cancelled it It was like, Aah heartbreaking.
[00:11:53] You know, And our, especially being our first one, . Um, Yeah. Months of diligence and, [00:12:00] and, and then yeah. Killed literally at the last possible second that we thought, and we thought this was going to signature, you know, know the guy comes back, I’ll apologize ap. So anyways, all this is happening. And then finally in 2019 1 of our investors is, is, um, I don’t know if he was on the board or just really close to the board at Florida Atlantic University in Florida.
[00:12:21] And, and he basically Kind of personally vouches for us. And they say, Oh sure, what the hell? We’ll give it a try. And we get the first program finally over the line and we get it launched. And it has, it’s not even tremendously successful. It was just a little bit successful. But it was enough for us to then start to go to the other schools and say, See, Florida Atlantic did this.
[00:12:42] Do you want to get on board? And it’s true. All it just started going, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, and then particularly Covid really helped us because here comes covid. All of a sudden, all these schools are in total disruption mode. None of them are prepared to switch [00:13:00] everything online. They’re all worried about their budgets and cannabis is deemed essential.
[00:13:05] And so it has this kind of boost in a, a, you know, a stigma standpoint that makes ’em feel okay. And so we went from two, or, uh, I guess we were just at. We’d signed two, maybe three schools before Covid started, and then now we’re at 30, 32 or 33, you know, here in 2022. So it’s been a, a crazy few years of building since that time.
[00:13:30]Bryan Fields: I definitely have my beef with traditional education, but I, I mean from your pitch standpoint, right? You’re going to these universities, you’re giving students an opportunity to transition, to get a skill set into an industry that’s absolutely exploding, right? Like at least the universities can agree they are going to be jobs to help these students kind of.
[00:13:46] Progress forward. So it’s, it’s kind of sad to hear those stories, but it, it’s, it’s it’s eye-opening, right? Because those are the experiences that are happening and that’s what’s so critical for you and your mission of kind of helping bring the, the stigma and reducing that normalization of [00:14:00] cannabis to the forefront.
[00:14:01]Max Simon: And, and you know, I have this same beef with higher education. Um, I hated college. I hated it. I literally hated the academic infrastructure of college because it was a waste of time and I was studying and being forced to do all this other stuff. But where we found a, an amazing niche, which is totally reinvigorated my belief in it is, you know, these continuing education programs are like focused credentials that are shorter and.
[00:14:30] Um, focused on, on skills and, and workforce development needs. And so, you know, we love operating in this university pseudo system. You know, we’re not an undergraduate program. We’re not in these degree programs. They’re not these huge lengthy time processes. They’re shorter skills based workforce development programs.
[00:14:49] And, and as a result of that, We’re just seeing all the stu the, the stories of students saying, I came to this. I didn’t know much. I took the programs. I now know cannabis. I was able to take this and [00:15:00] parlay it into a job. You know, it’s short and tight and I could do it on my own. And so I really love this continuing education environment because it, it’s focused, it’s tight, it’s cheaper, it’s faster.
[00:15:11] But it actually is very, very skills based kind of workforce development based. So it’s kind of reinvigorated my love for higher education, being in this little tiny silo that exists within that universe. I mean, it’s
[00:15:23]Kellan Finney: also like a rare gem too for universities because you’re providing a solution for kids that wanna get in the industry and now they have the ability to gain the skills to actually be successful in the
[00:15:34]Bryan Fields: in.
[00:15:35]Max Simon: Yeah,
[00:15:35]Bryan Fields: exactly. Let’s talk about some of those skills. Uh, I know you’ve got some announcements coming up. We’d love to hear kind of what they can gain from the program. Yeah,
[00:15:43]Max Simon: so the, the, the programs that are, you know, just about to come out that are actually not even through the universities to be clear, um, that’s not true.
[00:15:51] Some of the community colleges are offering some of these programs, but, you know, , the cannabis industry is such a. A complex place, and as [00:16:00] somebody who’s now been here long enough to understand all the channels, you realize that there is so much to learn about this industry and how it operates and how it works.
[00:16:10] And where we’ve been finding kind of greater and greater levels of success is getting more and more narrow in terms of what you’re training people around. And so we have these three. Programs that are built by the, the GF Institute, which is a, and actually a, a another part of the business. But it’s the part of the business that, that is, um, about developing standards.
[00:16:33] And so we, we gathered together 40. Cannabis operators that had collectively 25,000 employees in this space. And we worked with them to create these kind of shorter credential programs that are designed to be a baseline level of proficiency for that sector. So we have three sectors. We have the dispensary associate program, the cultivation Technician program, and the manufacturing agent program because we have [00:17:00] found, quite frankly, The most amount of people that are getting hired and are coming into the industry are coming in to work at retail, work in cultivation, or work in the the manufacturing and the brand building process.
[00:17:11] We’ve got these three programs now that took, you know, about 15 months to really create that, that consensus mechanism with the steering committee, with the, with the people in the GF Institute to say, now these, they’re only about six to eight hour programs are the baseline level of proficiency that somebody needs to have to work in cannabis retail.
[00:17:33] Or to work in cannabis cultivation or to work in cannabis manufacturing. And so I’m really excited about these programs cuz it’s, it’s the first time from my standpoint that we’ve got programs that are so pinpointed towards, these are the skills you need to get jobs in the industry and here are the sectors of the industry that you can get jobs around if you take these programs.
[00:17:54] So that’s, that’s been kind of our big push coming into the end of this. Were [00:18:00] they 1 0 1
[00:18:00]Bryan Fields: level classes? To clarify? And are, are there any differences from like a state by
[00:18:04]Max Simon: state standpoint? They’re definitely baseline level of proficiency. So for example, you know, in the cultivation program you learn the stages of the plant growing cycle.
[00:18:17] Right. So you learn about each stage of the plant, You learn about the fundamentals of growing cannabis, watering, lighting, soil mediums, nutrients. You know, you learn kind of baseline levels of proficiency. Um, and then you learn about, you know, uh, harvesting and processing and curing and storage. Um, because in the cultivation process, that’s everything that happens, right from seed to harvest, basically seed to production.
[00:18:44] But as I’m saying this, you. know We’ve learned this is baseline level of proficiency, but I’m willing to bet you that 99% of people that will listen to this podcast actually doesn’t even have that baseline level of proficiency. They don’t know all those stages of the cycles. They don’t, [00:19:00] none understand what nutrients do.
[00:19:01] They don’t understand the harvestings, you know, and so, As simple and foundational as they are, um, everybody that goes through these programs learns a ton because nobody really has had proper education to be in this space unless they’ve learned on the job. And even then, you know, questionable how, uh, how uh, comprehensive that learning really is.
[00:19:23]Bryan Fields: Yeah. So each
[00:19:24]Kellan Finney: program’s very, very different. Was there one that was a little more challenging to put together than the other ones?
[00:19:29]Max Simon: I mean, the manufacturing program is so cool. The manufacturing program goes through each extraction methodology, so you really like understand ethanol versus CO2 versus solventless base because, you know, that’s how the products are being made.
[00:19:44] So, so you, we had to find the experts to, to walk us through each of these extraction processes. And then we went through each cannabis product type, um, you know, vape pens. Flower and pre-rolls. [00:20:00] Um, Kind of everything and, and you walk through the manufacturing process that can be used to make these products.
[00:20:07] And, and so it was very technical. I think that’s my point. It was a very technical based program, but the end result is that, man, you know, talk about something that’s value oriented. Like if you wanna learn to build cannabis products and learn the manufacturing process of how these products are made, you go through this eight hour training and bam, you know, you’ll, you’ll.
[00:20:29] S you’ll be so far ahead of the pack. Um, so that was the most program, difficult program to create. But I also have a tremendous amount of optimism about the influence of that program because it’ll give people such a great foundation to be able to succeed in cannabis manufacturing. That’s the point. ,
[00:20:45]Bryan Fields: how was the response been with, let’s say, large operators in this space?
[00:20:48] Obviously, some of these MSOs are scaling incredibly fast and having a resource like yours in order to bring credential employees is probably making a massive difference. How’s been the response?
[00:20:58]Max Simon: Well, so I, I’d like to [00:21:00] answer that in a few phases. You know, we’ve been talking to a lot of these operators for many years, um, especially the big guys.
[00:21:08] And, um, I can tell you that only this year, and I mean, I’m afraid to say this, but only like really the second half of the year as everybody’s gotten the, you know, the living heck kicked out of ’em, have these operators started to say to themselves, You know, we really should probably do more for our people.
[00:21:28] I, I, I don’t know how else to say that, but there’s been a, a, a a pretty noticeable. Tonality shift that has taken place this year from the operators. And, and I’m grateful to say, just like with the schools after all these years of feeling like we were kind of hitting a, a wall, talking to these people about training and educating their people this year has had a seismic shift in that.
[00:21:54] And, and we’ve had, you know, literally. Some of the largest operators sign on to now get their whole [00:22:00] en entire company certified through these programs. Um, and so that’s, I’m grateful to say is a, but a very new development that has happened really in the second half of this year, um, that I’m grateful for.
[00:22:12] And I think, again, it goes back to the very simple explanation that a lot of these operators have realized they can’t just. Blindly funding their operations, you know, forever. And so we’ve gotta get their costs and their culture under control. And, and that’s, you know, a lot of times about your people and about making sure your people have the education and training and, you know, guidance that need to be successful.
[00:22:34] So there’s been a, a grateful sea change just recently after lots of years of feeling like this was not gonna work. .
[00:22:43]Bryan Fields: It’s one thing to have an expensive mistake from an inexperienced operator, right? It’s another thing when you compare that to what it would’ve cost from an educational standpoint, if you would’ve trained your team in order to avoid those mistakes, and unfortunately it seems like a lot of those operators maybe have run into those mistakes and realized maybe there’s a more cost effective solution that would be [00:23:00] helpful for us.
[00:23:00]Max Simon: Well, and the turnover is so crazy. Like just , just this week we were going through our list of kind of, um, you know, people that we’ve, we’ve worked with deeply in the curriculum development process over the years. And I, I would, I mean this is probably a little over far reach, but I would say that somewhere north of nor, definitely north of 50%, maybe even north of 75% weren’t at the same company they were at when we did the process.
[00:23:29] You know, it was like, so ma and you know, and this is like the CEO level. I mean, I couldn’t tell you how many of these groups I went to and I was like, Oh, Jesus, the CEO’s not there anymore. Oh man. CEO’s not there anymore. Like over and over and over again. I was seeing this happen. So I think the real issue that we’re tackling is the turnover issue is so expensive.
[00:23:51] The turnover issue, and you know, we are so deeply embedded with these HR groups. We know that. You know, the cost to recruit people, to interview [00:24:00] people, to hire people, to train people, you know, to provide all the infrastructure. It’s expensive. It’s really expensive, and I think that for whatever reason, and I don’t understand it, these cannabis companies just kind of turned a blind eye to the fact that their turnover was what it was and high as it was, and expensive as it was, was.
[00:24:19] But now in this environment, they’re saying we can’t. Can’t do that. And so, quite frankly, even just providing training pathways that people have to go through over the series of a few months will extend the shelf life of employees. And even at that like very baseline level of business, it’s like if you can get another few months outta your employees, the programs pay for themself.
[00:24:39] Don’t forget about the culture boost, Forget about the more effectiveness of your team, the better results that they. This will pay for itself and that’s what’s being proven out now through all these operators coming on board. But boy, it’s taken us years to get that message. To get through.
[00:24:55]Kellan Finney: Why do you think it took so long for
[00:24:56]Max Simon: the message to get through?
[00:24:57] I mean, I really think that a, a lot [00:25:00] of the, the, the cannabis operators that are more than a 10 person shop, right? Because the truth is there’s, there’s a, you know, a huge portion of our market that’s, I mean, maybe not 10, but you know, sub 20, sub 30 people, small groups, and, and those people actually do tend to treat their employees better, and they do tend to be more caring, and they do tend to embrace training more in that whole thing.
[00:25:24] The problem is, is that that, you know, the industry also has this whole other bucket of people that are super well funded and, and are, have money and have the business background, and I just feel like they, that group of people. Definitely felt like money was always gonna be there, so, so they didn’t have to take this seriously.
[00:25:44] And also were so intertwined in the expansion plans, the licensing and all the other stuff, that it was just kind of an afterthought. And when you, you know, when you brought it up, it was just kind of like, you know, and my list of priorities, I’m not gonna make that a big priority. [00:26:00] And I just feel like, quite frankly, it’s just caught up to them.
[00:26:02] And now that they can’t, their money’s dried up. Their turnover is an issue and it’s very expensive, and they are forced now to take this seriously because they’re bleeding. You know, they’re bleeding and like you kind of can’t, can’t ignore it. No, it’s, it’s
[00:26:18]Bryan Fields: perfectly said. I think there’s so many reasons why they, they wanted to do it, but just didn’t prioritize it.
[00:26:23] And then when they didn’t have the type of capital that they had, because they were burning cash incredibly fast, they all had to look inwards. And the easiest way to do that is be like, All right, well, let’s stop having to, to hire new people on a regular basis. Let’s extend that, that month to month standpoint.
[00:26:36] And like you said, Max, like if they stay an extra two or three months and it pays for itself, plus we have to train. It’s a win-win for all. I guess my question to you is, hypothetically, have you ever had any conversations with the government in regards to helping kind of lift the industry as a whole?
[00:26:50]Max Simon: Yeah, I mean, we, we, first off, one of the things that Green Flour’s done is, um, there is training requirements in many states, you know, many different states [00:27:00] around the country has, whether it’s retail training requirements or, um, there’s food safety training requirements, um, and, and so on. And so green flour is accredited.
[00:27:10] Every state where that training is, um, offered to employees. And because of that, we then work with the, the government agencies, you know, the, the, the cannabis task force in each of those states. Um, on top of that, we have a partnership with a group that is kind of the training arm of the fda. Um, and so we have our inroads there and.
[00:27:30] Um, ultimately what I would tell you is that first and foremost training will become, um, required upon federal legalization. It, this is a heavily regulated industry and every heavy regulated industry has training requirements. So there, there’s a inevitability that, um, you know, federal legalization will bring forward certain level of training and educational requirements, and that will lift up the industry and its nature.
[00:27:58] I think, you know, like. [00:28:00] Even the operators, a lot of these government companies, they, they, their government agents, they come from knowing nothing about cannabis. And so they step into this world and it’s just a fire hose. And so I think just like operators, they’re trying to, they’re trying their best to prioritize the priorities.
[00:28:17] And they’re failing a lot of the time because they’re just kind of guessing at these things. But I would say that it’s, you know, kind of in the mix of their consideration to help use training to live up the industry. But it’s 1 of 500 other things that they’re also trying to, to tackle and figure out.
[00:28:33] Do you guys currently
[00:28:34]Kellan Finney: have some, uh, federal guidance in your certification programs like OSHA stuff or anything like
[00:28:39]Max Simon: that? Yep. We do. We, we have, um, we actually are just about to finish. I was hoping by this podcast, um, I would be able to, to, to claim it, but we haven’t yet. So we’re just a, in the final throws of this multi-year antsy, uh, accreditation process, Ansy is the, basically the international standard setting body for, for standards.
[00:28:59] Um, [00:29:00] and we will have the. Cannabis food safety equivalent, meaning right now, even food safety, um, requirements, people are doing kind of generic food safety training. Um, and we have the cannabis. Centric version of that, that’s now in the final stages of being accredited, um, which will be offered to all the operators to do things like that.
[00:29:23] So, you know, but this is, it’s another good example of like, you know, you have to build something that’s cannabis centric, cuz that doesn’t even exist. And then you have to spend years going through the accreditation process and them asking the literal, you know, dumbest questions you could imagine. Um, and getting through this whole process just to have the cannabis equivalent of food safety
[00:29:45] So it’s, everything’s
[00:29:47]Kellan Finney: harder in
[00:29:47]Max Simon: cannabis. Every, everything is harder, takes longer, you’ll get told. So much more than you expect. Um, but that’s also, you know, personally, why I’ve loved being in cannabis so much is [00:30:00] personally, it has made me such a resilient leader. Um, you know, I just, I, it’s shocking to me how many times we’ve been told, No, this won’t work.
[00:30:09] We can’t do it. I, and blah, blah, whatever it is, just some version of no. and have had to move around it somehow, whether it’s through that person or through another service or through another option or coming back or whatever. But that’s just kind of what you have to do. And you do it enough times. You start to realize, I can do this with everything
[00:30:26] You know, I can be this resilient with everything in my life. And that’s, That’s a gift. A gift,
[00:30:31]Bryan Fields: Yeah. It’s perfectly sad. At a certain point, you just don’t feel it anymore. You’re like, I, Well, onto the next, we’ll figure it out from there. Exactly. So give us a sneak peek into the, the GIA program. Is it cannabis small?
[00:30:42] Yay. Give us some, some insights into that.
[00:30:44]Max Simon: This is my favorite thing in the world to talk about because I personally think it’s like the most fun and interesting thing that we do. So, um, the origin story here is that me and the co-founder of Gia, Derek, were sitting on a couch smoking a joint. Just absolutely.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Hating on how bad the service was at retail. Just like absolutely hating on how terrible the service is. And, and I spend a lot of time traveling around the country, you know, oftentimes training these, these companies and you just see, like, I would, I hate to say this, but I would probably say like eight outta 10 times the recommendations that people in retail give to consumers is, Agree.
[00:31:22] It, it’s, it’s, it’s really terribly off base. So we were riffing about this and, and saying, Gotta be a way we can fix this issue. But, you know, you could do bud tender training, but people don’t really care about that. So who, who in other industries has created a, a master of can of, of products and service?
[00:31:41] Basically, that was the question. Who in other industries has created a masters of products and service? And when we started asking that question, it was obvious, you know, Wine Sommers exist there. There’s actually a program in the beer industry called Cerrone where people get certified to be cerrone’s.
[00:31:58] There’s coffee cups, you know, [00:32:00] there’s, um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s train professionals and, and actually every sector that have a certain level of qualification that distinguishes them. And so we realized that and we started studying, uh, the framework of these programs and looking at how.
[00:32:18] Structure looks and we took that structure and then we rallied together this group of 18 individuals. Called the GGE Council that has about 600 years of cannabis experience. And we said, if we wanna train people to be experts in products, experts in assessment, and experts in service, because those are the, the pillars of what these other industries really bring to the table, how would we do it?
[00:32:39] And so we spent three years. Building the curriculum of what needs to be included in training people as masters of cannabis products and service. We built this GIA systematic assessment protocol, which is basically a, a, a, a methodology for assessing cannabis using, um, you know, aroma flavor, [00:33:00] experience and the, the, the visual, the appearance of it.
[00:33:03] Um, and then we built the app to be able to walk people through it. We built this live curriculum so that we could train people on these assessment methodologies to develop their pallets and understand how to recognize aromas and flavors and understand, you know, what good looks like and what doesn’t.
[00:33:18] And then we, we bought a campus in Humboldt. We, we got this 250 acre campus in Humbolt where now people can come into on a monthly basis and do this training. And so, Spent almost, it was almost three years, two and a half years building the, the, just the infrastructure of it, the training online programs, the curriculums, the apps, all that other stuff.
[00:33:37] Launched it in the beginning of 2021. The whole year’s program sold out in three weeks the first year. Um, and so we sold the whole thing out in the first month and then spent the year putting people. Right. And, and it was incredibly eye-opening because, you know, we had to create an examination process to validate if people could pass this criteria.
[00:33:59] And [00:34:00] then we had lots of people fail the exams and it was this like big dramatic thing. And, and still to this day, a third of the people that take those exams still, even with all the things we do, still fail ’em. Um, it’s, it’s a difficult thing to get through. But, you know, you go through this whole process in year one, it.
[00:34:17] It’s emotional, but you know, it works. And then we, I know from building these educational programs, you have to just kind of, year two is really where the rubber meets the road. Cause you can make anything sound appealing and sexy outta the gate. And, and then you need to see if it holds weight. And fortunately we, we sold out year two as well.
[00:34:34] And so we’ve been certifying everybody through year two. This year we’ve really got the processes dialed in and, and now we’ve got 165 certified goias out in the community. People that have gone through and gotten certified. Um, and they’re, uh, You know, doing everything from, like I said, we’ve got CEOs and lawyers and researchers all the way to people that are now running retail management or running product development of, of a lot of these, these growing [00:35:00] companies.
[00:35:00] So it’s been this amazing process where you just get to absolutely geek out on all things cannabis and then study by practicing assessing cannabis, and you know, really learning the smells, the aromas, the flavors, and how those translates to the effects. And so it’s such. It’s an amazingly cool process where you get so intimately connected to the plant and in that process you really learn how to communicate to other people about all the nuances that make cannabis what it is.
[00:35:28]Kellan Finney: So with the wine sommelier, I, isn’t there a massive fail rate? Like that’s a really, really challenging program to get through as well, right? So how do you balance launching a program and having individuals pay for it, and then knowing that it needs to be, uh, tough enough? To create a, a high quality individual, but also not fail everyone like that.
[00:35:51] Sounds like a really challenging balance.
[00:35:53]Max Simon: It’s really emotional. I mean, I’ll tell you still to this day, you know, we run these events every month and, and right now, [00:36:00] Still a third of the people fail every month. Um, and, and it’s, it’s heartbreaking and it leads to a ton of emotion. But again, you know, you, there’s a, um, I’ve been building education programs long enough to know a few things.
[00:36:13] You know, one is, um, it’s all about the vision of what you’re trying to do. And the vision of Gja is that we’re still certifying people in a hundred years. That was. That was the, the vision that we created, that no matter what happens to the rest of the business, you know, we want GGI to be still certifying professionals in a hundred years.
[00:36:33] And, and because of that long term thinking, you really start to build foundational things with a lot of scrutiny. You know, so you do less, but you do those things really, really accurately and really, really well. And so, you know, we’ve communicated to all the Gja students, like, you know, we’re building this to be.
[00:36:52] There, there’s, this is a no-bullshit examination process. You know, you’re not gonna just show up and pass. You have to study and [00:37:00] you have to learn and, and you have to show up prepared. And then we hold to that, you know, we’ve got a nice tight criteria for the exam where you, you know, the, the multiple choice part of it.
[00:37:11] You can only miss 10, 10 out of the hundred. The service exam you have, you have to hit all the service points that we’ve mapped out in the GIA protocols. And if you don’t hit all those, All of ’em. You fail the service. and then you have to do this assessment exam where you fall with, you have to fall within a one point radius of the assessment on, on, you know, either side.
[00:37:32] So you know, if you judge it a 6.5, it has to either be a 5.5 or a 7.5, you know, within that, that range basically to pass. So we defined all the criteria and we’ve put people through it. And in the beginning lots of people were failing and it was terribly painful. Um, but we had to. You know, acknowledge this is the process of building this a hundred year thing.
[00:37:54] And now we’ve gotten better and better at study materials and their study groups and study guides and all this stuff. Um, [00:38:00] it’s on now one in three, you know, a third are failing instead of half, which is better. But it’s maintaining the integrity of the program and it’s making people really, really earn it.
[00:38:09] And thus, when you do earn it, it gains a certain level of respect in the industry. You have to earn it. Um, and. So that’s how we’ve kind of tackled it. It’s not perfect yet, and it’s still very emotional and you know, you wouldn’t believe how upset people get when they fail, but, We’ll keep going. ,
[00:38:28]Bryan Fields: that has to be such a delicate balance for you as well, right?
[00:38:30] Because you want to see the course succeed, but you also have to ensure that it has some stability and some credentials, because if every single person passed, it wouldn’t really have as much value to it because they’re integrity. Yeah. Everyone would be like, Well, you know, I could just fill out the paperwork and get it also.
[00:38:44] But the fact that people fail and honestly, probably the more, the better I is from an integrity standpoint of like the, the, the actual fight of getting through it and the studying and the showing up and the putting the effort in. Kind of allows for that to kind of be put on that pedestal, like probably the industry [00:39:00] needs.
[00:39:00] So I mean that, that has to be an incredible challenge. I guess my next question would be, do you foresee something like that being at like consumption lounge, Like having someone like that being stationed there to come around and make a recommendation based on the personal’s individual needs of recommendations.
[00:39:13]Max Simon: Yeah. Um, and you know, I just, I’ll just say too, I, I got certified in May and, and Did you pass
[00:39:19]Bryan Fields: Congratulations, by the way, .
[00:39:23]Max Simon: I was thinking about, you know, it was like my greatest fear of how tremendously embarrassing it would be if like the person that created the program couldn’t make it through the exams.
[00:39:31] Um, unfortunately I did pass, but I’ll tell you, it, it is one of the most nerve-wracking damn things you’ve ever done. And, and it’s such a funny. You know, there’s such polarity in it because like here you are, you’re literally, you’re literally smoking weed for your. Right. I mean the, the, the, the thought process of it is so funny to me to think about you’re smoking weed for an exam and you’re just trying your best to like break it all apart.
[00:39:56] And where everybody fails is in the flavor and Roma part of it [00:40:00] because it’s up to your palette and it’s up to the consensus mechanism that happened from the people judging the, the process. So anyways, the point is just, it’s, it’s scary and it’s difficult and you’re nerve-wracking, but the people that go through it and earn it, Most of them would tell us it’s literally the highlight of their lives.
[00:40:17] you know, they really feel like it’s one of the greatest accomplishments of their lives getting through the program. Um, and so, and then when you fail, it’s like utterly heartbreaking. And just the emotion is so much, there’s such big emotions that come from it. But again, you know, We’ve got our vision.
[00:40:34] This is this, this should be here in a hundred years, still training people to be masters of cannabis service and playing that level of role in the industry. Um, and to answer your question, you know, that was the original vision, is that we should have a GGE in every retail shop, in every consumption lounge.
[00:40:52] That that was, you know, that was the, the tactical goal is we wanna, we want a gaja and every retail shop and every consumption lounge, because [00:41:00] they’re the ones trained to be masters of cannabis service. So where does that service take place? Takes place in retail and takes place in consumption lounges.
[00:41:07] We’re, we’re, um, you know, we’re far away from being there. We’re far, far away from being there, but that’s the beauty of a hundred year vision. You know, you kind of just keep, keep working on it.
[00:41:18]Bryan Fields: It has to be a fun team building effort, right? People come to the campus, how long are they there for?
[00:41:22]Max Simon: Two days, two full days.
[00:41:24] Um, and it’s, they’re packed. You start at nine and oftentimes they’ll go till like 10 o’clock at night, just geeking out. I mean, it’s like the geekiest cannabis thing you’ve ever done. You’re like opening it up and you’re looking at it through the jewelers loop and you’re smelling and you’re picking out the aromas.
[00:41:40] But, but to people like me who love cannabis, who love everything about cannabis, It’s, it’s the thrill of a lifetime because you really, And the thing that’s so cool for me is, and this was the thesis of the program, is once you go through it, you can smell something and you can tell people the quality of that.
[00:41:59] You can [00:42:00] tell people the direction of what the effect profile will be. You can tell people how much they should consume of it based upon the, the properties of it to get the ideal effect. You can get really sophisticated and accurate with how you provide that level of guidance to people. And it’s cool that it works, you know?
[00:42:19] I mean, at the end of the day, that’s the point, is that that people become real true masters of cannabis service. And that’s why those roles are now being, um, kind of embraced in the industry, is they’re, they’re playing that manager role or the menu curation role or. They’re, they’re taking on the role of marketing lead because they understand the nuances of how to communicate and differentiate the product.
[00:42:38] So we’re seeing this amazing, amazing followthrough of people that are getting certified and then using that to leverage that in, in their, in their careers.
[00:42:49]Bryan Fields: What, do you guys have
[00:42:50]Kellan Finney: any, uh, individuals that attend the program that disagree with some of the content that’s being being taught? Good question.
[00:42:56]Max Simon: We get arguments all the time just [00:43:00] about the assessment. Um, It’s really the assessment accuracy of the exams. That’s it. That’s it. I is, is where people will say, you know, , I judged this, this way and you guys judged it this way, and they’ll, you know, well, the people will fight tooth and nail about those different quality assessment things.
[00:43:21] And it’s really tricky. I mean, you know, it’s really a tricky thing because. Although the instructors are truly the most experienced cannabis people pro on earth, I mean, there’s not a, a large group of people that have been doing this for 10, 20 years in the legacy space or in Prop 2 15 environment in California.
[00:43:43] And then have also transitioned to being such major players in legal space. Because that’s the thing, it’s, it’s, you have to hold both things in cannabis. You have to hold the love, the culture and the legacy and all that stuff. And the fact that we’re in a newly regulated legal market that’s a [00:44:00] totally different environment.
[00:44:01] So, So these 18 people are, all Coming from that legacy background, but participating in this space. And you know, it’s like swami chaitanya is one of the judges who’s been judging the Emerald Cup for 18 years and he’s the one doing the assessments. So like, are you gonna fine? You can challenge swami’s assessments, you can, but like, who’s more qualified than him?
[00:44:22] You know what I mean? Like there’s a certain point where you just gotta say like, these are the people that know their shit. Um, So, you know, we, we kind of try our best to just like, let the reality of the program speak for itself. But yeah, people argue about the assessment criteria all the time.
[00:44:37]Bryan Fields: That’s a good question though, Calvin ,
[00:44:40]Kellan Finney: what is one
[00:44:40]Bryan Fields: factor statistic about creating an educational ecosystem that would shock the cannabis
[00:44:45]Max Simon: industry?
[00:44:47] That it’s so freaking difficult and it takes so much time to get the consensus of what’s really supposed to be included. Um, you know, the, the thing that’s fascinating is cannabis is [00:45:00] a, an industry full of people with huge egos that have no right to have those egos. Um, That, that’s it. They don’t, they don’t have the right, And, and quite frankly, the higher up you go from people that, that have been in the space, the, the more they know, they don’t, they don’t know everything.
[00:45:15] But you have this enormous flood of people coming in that come from other sectors or come from other industries and they, they just, they think they know what good education looks like. They think they know what should go in the program. I think they, but the truth is they don’t know . And it takes a really long time, a really long time to kind of develop these programs.
[00:45:34] So, I guess yeah, that’s, that’s the the point. It just takes forever to do these, deal with
[00:45:39]Bryan Fields: the right way. 20 years from now, we will look back and say, I can’t believe we did that. That is barbaric. Why did we do that in the cannabis industry? What is that?
[00:45:49]Max Simon: Oh, it’s cannabis only being sold in this ultra restricted, ultra limited way.
[00:45:55] You know, I mean, cannabis won’t stay there forever. Um, cuz it [00:46:00] doesn’t deserve to be isolated in this, you know, iron cage of only limited to this thing. Like, we don’t do that to. Pretty much anything. I mean, I guess there’s some things we do, but, um, so can, yeah. Cannabis will be sold everywhere. Cannabis will be sold and consumed everywhere.
[00:46:15] And we’ll look back and go, Why? Why were we so afraid of this thing? That’s so stupid. .
[00:46:20]Bryan Fields: Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass on to the next generation, what would it be?
[00:46:32]Max Simon: It’s that, um, building resilience. Is an amazingly valuable and important skill and in certain places it’s the most important thing you need to cultivate to succeed and, and I think that’s just what cannabis has taught me is just there you will in this space. Get nos for many months, sometimes in the beginning, [00:47:00] doesn’t really matter what it is.
[00:47:01] Going to schools, you know, it took us a year and a half to get a, a payment provider to accept us to offer financing for our students. You know, we just signed a text messaging service that took us five months to find because we were told no by 25 people, you know, and, and. There’s, there’s, there’s beauty in the nose.
[00:47:23] There’s beauty in, in the rejections because if you can just say, Okay, no problem, and then keep working on it and keep trusting that you’ll find a solution. You learn that, you do, you learn that you do find those solutions and you do find workarounds and you can make it through. I have this, um, that saying that, that, um, success is inevit, uh, no, um, how do I say it?
[00:47:45] That, That, um, everyone can succeed at everything. It’s just that everybody gives up too soon. That’s how I say it. Everybody can succeed at anything. It’s just that everybody gives up too soon. And, and that’s the lesson of the cannabis industry is that we’re still dealing with [00:48:00] tremendous challenges and things, but we’re not giving up and thus we’re succeeding.
[00:48:03] We’re continuing to drive things forward. So I really feel resilience is the name of the game, especially in this sector. ,
[00:48:10]Bryan Fields: that was awesome. I love that. Appreciate you sharing that. All right. Prediction and. education can change stigma. Max, what specific part of education can help with the normalization for the mainstream, for the cannabis
[00:48:23]Max Simon: industry?
[00:48:26] Oh gosh. Well, I think it’s important for people to understand the endocannabinoid system for the simple fact that the biggest public narrative around cannabis is, um, you know, I hope it’s not too bad for. Basically, right. I hope this isn’t, I will tolerate this. The public, you know, the public policy narrative, a lot of these kind of mainstream things, it’s like, well, I guess this is something to tolerate.
[00:48:50] But the, the endocannabinoid system and all the science around it and how it works, demonstrates that, that actually the exact opposite is the truth. That cannabis is [00:49:00] a life saving, life giving supplement that feeds. Our system in a way that literally nothing else on planet Earth can do. And so we need to help people understand, it’s not that this is not bad for you, it’s that that done consciously and, and in the right way.
[00:49:19] This is good for you . And that that’s a, a, you know, a message that is definitely not well received currently because people are still just trying to get used to tolerating this as an alcohol substitute, you know? And. It’s a shame. I think that’s a shame. Kelly,
[00:49:37]Bryan Fields: I’m
[00:49:37]Kellan Finney: gonna piggyback on what Max said, and I think that, uh, once the endocannabinoid system is actually taught in medical school, I think that is gonna be a big one, right?
[00:49:45] Cause I, I’m just gonna rest my case there. I think we have talked about it enough on the show, but, uh, I think once it gets taught in medical schools and doctors start to learn, As part of their degrees. Then as we become standard knowledge, how all the [00:50:00] cannabinoids interact with the human body from a medicinal standpoint will become more public and it’ll just help provide comfort for everyone who’s scared of the plant because they’re just scared cuz they don’t
[00:50:09]Max Simon: know.
[00:50:10] Yeah. And you know, I mean I’ve been using cannabis a long time and, and it wasn’t until green flour that I started to realize. This is my medicine and I’m gonna use it actually in the same way I use all my medicines. My green drinks is, I take it the same dose, at the same times, in the same measured ways, and I do it every single day.
[00:50:31] And, and it, it is my. It is the reason I’ve gotten my ADHD under control. It’s, it’s, it’s so tied to a direct benefit to me personally. And so I think, you know, when you really start to look at it, you realize that lots of us individuals are actually still carrying stigma. We’re, we’re still a little like we do it, but we’re a little concerned about it, or we consume cannabis, but we feel a little embarrassed by it.
[00:50:55] Or we kind of just think about. We’re getting high and, and so be it. Not [00:51:00] necessarily looking at it from a medicinal wellness standpoint. And I think personally going through this journey of being educated and then realizing I was holding so much stigma around this and dropping that to be able to do this with such consistency, I, you know, I take my cannabis twice a day, every same time, every day.
[00:51:16] And measur measured doses. And that’s been life changing for me. Absolutely. Utterly life changing. But to have somebody like me who’s been consuming for so. Is in the industry and then still needs to go through this shedding layer, this like stigma dropping layer, this shame dropping layer to get to a place where I’m like, Yeah, I’m using this every day cause this is good for me.
[00:51:36] You know, this is a benefit to my life. Take taken a long time. So we’re, we’re, we got some work to do.
[00:51:41]Bryan Fields: I, I think it’s also important to remember that it’s not one size fits all, right? Like the same product you take for certain situations is not the same one you take for a relaxer to help you sleep. And I think that’s the massive take home message that I really want people to realize is that there’s different products for different situations and it’s not going to be the first product you buy is gonna be the best one for you.
[00:51:58] It’s going to take a guest test [00:52:00] and revise and starts with understanding you know, what your body likes and educating yourself on the differences of the.
[00:52:06]Max Simon: I always say that if, um, if cannabis history was wiped away, right? All this last 80 years of stigma and war on drugs and all this other stuff, and, and then today, you know, some scientists walked in and discovered this plant and then brought it to the lab and started researching it, it would be celebrated as the single greatest medical discovery of the 21st century that it would be.
[00:52:33] like Wait. Wait Whoa, whoa. So you’re telling me this plant helps me sleep, helps me relax, helps me be creative, helps me connect to spirituality, can, can have measurable effects on cancer, can have measurable effects on depression, measurable effects on anxiety. You know, measurable effects on spasticity, measurable effects on epilepsy.
[00:52:50] I mean, you really start to go down to it. You realize it’s, it’s the most, you know, it’s one of the most incredible plants that exists on planet Earth. [00:53:00] It’s just that we’ve got this huge backlog of nonsense shadowing and coloring it. But you know, like all of us, we’re doing our piece stigma’s going away.
[00:53:09] People will realize the versatility of what this plant can offer humanity is immense. Pretty incredible
[00:53:16]Bryan Fields: hearing you lay it out like that. So Max, for our listeners, they want to get in touch, they wanna start training themselves, and they’re probably interested in the Grier program. Where can they find ya?
[00:53:25]Max Simon: So everything’s at green-flower.com, or you can just Google Green Flower or gogi. Um, you know, the, the, the new GFI programs, the dispensary, associate cultivation technician and manufacturing agent are come coming live in November, and GOGI is opening for our 2023 class in November. So it’s good, good time to be here and uh, yeah.
[00:53:47] Go check it out now is if history repeats itself, Gia won’t, won’t be available for too long until next year and, uh, the GFI programs will, will be available. Awesome.
[00:53:56]Bryan Fields: We will link ’em up in the show notes. Thanks for taking the time. This was fun.
[00:53:59]Max Simon: Yeah, thank you. This was great [00:54:00] guys. Thanks so much.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Adam Terry, Co-Founder of Cantrip, to discuss:
How the Minnesota law is changing the beverage market
Cantrip is, at its core, a fun way to consume and experience cannabis.
We’re a sessionable, social beverage that is made for everybody looking for a way to hangout without the hangover.
About Adam Terry:
Adam is the CEO and co-founder of Cantrip. He’s a chemist that has spent over a decade working in extractions, coffee, cocktails, and developing cannabis products. Adam set out to create a new product with one goal in mind – to bring to market a cannabis product that was all about fun with friends.
Cantrip was designed at the nexus of Adam’s interests in interesting beverages, the joy of cannabis, and connecting people through shared experience. As a person who does not connect with the binary gender system, Adam has made it his mission that Cantrip be a product truly created for all to enjoy.
#Cannabis #CannabisBeverages #Cannabiscommunity
At Eighth Revolution (8th Rev), we provide services from capital to cannabinoid and everything in between in the cannabinoid industry.
8th Revolution Cannabinoid Playbook is an Industry-leading report covering the entire cannabis supply chain
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What up guys? Welcome back to an episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields, and with me as always says Ke Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, Adam Terry, co-founder and CEO of Canr SELs. Adam, thanks for taking the time. How you doing today? I am
[00:00:13]Adam Terry: doing great, Brian. Thank you for, uh, having me on the dime today.
[00:00:16] We’re excited. Dive in. Ke how are you doing?
[00:00:19]Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. Really excited to talk to Adam, learn a little bit more about, uh, cannabis beverages and uh, how are you doing Brian? I’m
[00:00:26]Bryan Fields: doing well. And Adam, for your location please. East coast or West
[00:00:29]Adam Terry: Coast? Uh, East Coast. Let the
[00:00:33]Bryan Fields: record say
[00:00:33]Kellan Finney: Kaan. Another one.
[00:00:35] Another one. It’s
[00:00:36]Adam Terry: alright. We gotta ask you The only, the only place for cannabis is important.
[00:00:40]Kellan Finney: Wow. We’re Where’s the bold statement? I like
[00:00:43]Bryan Fields: it. I like it. Coming out firing . Certainly clipping that. So Adam, for our listeners that are unfamiliar about you, can you give a little background about
[00:00:49]Adam Terry: yourself? Uh, yeah.
[00:00:51] So I’ve been in the cannabis industry since, uh, early 2015. Uh, I have a background in engineering product design, [00:01:00] and you know, it’s basically been my whole career, uh, post-college, focusing on cannabis, focusing on cannabis products. Spent a couple years extracting a lot of oil in California, and then I’ve spent more years back on the east coast in Massachusetts working with MSOs, designing labs, designing products, and then eventually creating my own products back in, uh, in mid 2020.
[00:01:20] And that’s where we get to. Can
[00:01:23]Bryan Fields: any, any hesitations early on to get into cannabis? Was it something you knew you always wanted to be involved with?
[00:01:29]Adam Terry: Uh, if you want to go really back in my cannabis career, I started consuming cannabis in high school, and then I joined the pot club at UMass. Uh, when I went, uh, I went to UMass Amherst, which had one of the oldest, uh, cannabis activist organizations.
[00:01:45] Uh, in the country. It was the oldest club on campus at UMass when I was there, and they threw a big festival every year for it. So I always knew the thought that it was gonna be something I could never put on my resume. Uh, I did not expect to go into cannabis professionally. I wasn’t sure [00:02:00] where I’d end up professionally.
[00:02:01] And then I moved to California, uh, and when I was in California, seemed there was a big need for engineers who were willing to take the risk of going into cannabis. So there really wasn’t any hesitation. I just kind of jumped straight into it. Really Not that many regrets other than I probably can’t get a job outside cannabis at this point, but we’ll see.
[00:02:18] I don’t think, I, hopefully
[00:02:20]Kellan Finney: when you’re going through kind of these product developments, well it made you settle on a beverage.
[00:02:25]Adam Terry: That’s a funny question because we were just talking about headset before the, uh, you know, the recording started and, uh, in 2018 and 2019, it was adamantly against beverages because as someone who worked for a multi-state operator who was job, it was to design everything down, straight up the flower.
[00:02:43] My position was always, there’s no way we can fit a beverage facility inside this vertically operated facility. You know, usually at that time they were giving us maybe 5% of the total footprint for manufacturing operations. Usually something like 500 to a thousand square feet and some of these [00:03:00] smaller MSOs.
[00:03:01] And so I said, Why would we dedicate, you know, a good chunk of our footprint to what is gonna be, you know, half percent to 1% of our revenue and it’s gonna be the lowest margin product we make. Uh, I also went to Colorado that year in 2018, and every beverage I tried was pretty terrible. So I thought there was no way to make a good tasting beverage.
[00:03:20] And then in 2020 I decided to make a beverage myself at. And I realized this is not only possible, um, you can make a great tasting one. And it’s really started to unlock for me when I thought about volume versus margin, because the beverage had an opportunity to get repurchasing behavior in a way that I didn’t see as possible in edibles.
[00:03:39] You know, a typical edible pack is, you know, 20 servings in Massachusetts, 10 servings in California and Colorado. And for my wife and I, we were only consuming, you know, one gummy maybe a week or you know, two gummies a week between us. So it would take, you know, a couple months to get that repurchase. I thought if I could make a low dose beverage so that you would want to consume more than one in a [00:04:00] single, um, you know, situation that you could get people to repurchase more frequently.
[00:04:04] And that’s really where beverage started to unlock for me, uh, and when I started truly earnestly working on can trip in summer of 2020. So you made
[00:04:12]Bryan Fields: the beverage at home, you started working on cant trip on the side. How, how quickly after that did you decide this might have legs? We wanted to. Take on a put time and effort into this project?
[00:04:23]Adam Terry: Yeah, well, I, uh, I left my previous job in early 2020 due to unrelated reasons. Uh, mostly, uh, there was some things going on with the company. The big band hit us pretty hard in 2019 as a company. Uh, the company I was previously working for made most of their money off of Vapor cartridges in Massachusetts.
[00:04:41] So I like to say that Charlie Baker personally killed my career. Uh, so I was pretty dedicated to it pretty quickly. Uh, it was something I really wanted to do. Uh, I, as somebody who’s been a product developer, I really wants to create a product to my own that I could focus on the branding and the product, uh, myself.
[00:04:57] So Can Trip was really [00:05:00] figuring out which product I wanted to do, and I definitely had a lot of people tell me. Bother with the beverage, go make a cartridge if you’re that good at making things. But to me, it seemed the, the, uh, the cartridge market was saturated and there was no way I was gonna sell to MSOs cartridges when they were already producing them.
[00:05:14] Now a quick aside on that is I was very wrong on that because that was exactly what I told Liam O’Brien at Fernway. Uh, right before they launched, I was like, I don’t think this is gonna work, because Amazon are, they make their cartridges now firm place like a 35 million company in one state. So I was very wrong on that.
[00:05:31] Uh, but moving to the beverage, I still saw an opportunity for something like six or 7 million in revenue in the first year for the beverage market in Massachusetts. No one else was online. This was before Levy launch. Uh, this was before really anybody had launched except SIP at com can. So I thought that the opportunity was there for the taking.
[00:05:50] So my goal was to, you know, fundraise and get to market as quickly as possible. We managed to, uh, close our first round of fundraising in March of [00:06:00] 2021. We launched in June of 2021 using a manufacturing partner in Massachusetts. And that put us as I think the second or third that bridge on the marketplace, uh, right alongside Levy, um, High Five, and at the time I think can had launched one flavor in Massachusetts.
[00:06:15] Um, and, you know, those are still the top performers in the market today. So first mover advantage is still key.
[00:06:23]Kellan Finney: So you started working as an engineer out in California, manufacturing the ingredients, and then transitioned into product development, and now you’re kind of running your own business. What does that transition from?
[00:06:35] An engineering kind of technical based skill set to kind of more of a business focused mindset. Can you kind of walk us through that transition that you’ve been going through?
[00:06:45]Adam Terry: Yeah, I, I, it is definitely an interesting question. Not everybody in engineering ends up moving into business, uh, from the more technical side, but engineering as a discipline really is business with a focus on understanding the science and technical aspects of [00:07:00] business.
[00:07:00] Um, at least that’s the way I always viewed it. Certainly you can get really complicated in the academia of different things within the discipline of chemical engineering or any other type of engineering. But at the end of the day, the, the way I saw it is that as an engineer, my job was to communicate what are the economics and the effectiveness of our manufacturing processes.
[00:07:21] And so focusing on things like THC recovery and the extraction process, uh, and other KPIs really put me in a position to help communicate to my bosses where we did need to spend money. And as I went further down that rabbit hole, um, I started to get more involved with the business end of things. And that, uh, particularly interested me, um, as I moved into the product development phase.
[00:07:44] You know, the first thing you do in product development is you develop your bill of materials and you say, How much is this gonna cost me to make roughly? Because, you know, really wanna make a product if you’re not gonna be able to make money on it from a, a retail price point. I think product development is really, uh, when I moved into that [00:08:00] area after kind of finishing the lab designs that I did for these MSOs was where the business really sparked for me.
[00:08:07] Because product development is such a cross-functional field. I mean, you really have to be taking in the concept of, you know, what’s gonna sell from marketing and sales. You have to be, uh, driving unit economics. You have to be thinking about, um, capital spend. And so all of that really is what it takes to start a business in many ways.
[00:08:25] You know, I think I’m a little bit light on the sales and marketing expertise really. So I was back then, I’m a little bit more versed now, But the, you know, doing all of that together really put me in a, in a key position to understand how cannabis businesses work, um, what is necessary to make them work, why they’re unique from other businesses.
[00:08:42] And because I had spent my entire career sort of enveloped in that, rather than, you know, having moved into it from other industries, I think it put me in a, in a. Great position to be able to run a cannabis business more than any other type. And so far it’s been somewhat successful. [00:09:00]
[00:09:02]Bryan Fields: And one of the things that you did not share were some of the obstacles that are just unique for cannabis, right?
[00:09:05] Operating a cannabis business, kind of layers on different challenges. So getting started early on with Can trip. Were there unforeseen obstacles when you got started that you, you hadn’t thought about prior that now looking back seemed kind
[00:09:15]Adam Terry: of obvious? Uh, certainly. I mean, in many cases there are things you foresee but you can’t do anything about.
[00:09:22] Uh, I think is is a better way to put it. Uh, distribution costs certainly we’re higher than we anticipated. Uh, you know, having in Massachusetts there’s no third party distributor model, or at least there wasn’t, you know, three years ago. We have had logistics, um, come online in Massachusetts, but it’s not the same as California where there’s a distribution license type and it’s an entire business for many of these people.
[00:09:46] Um, we really only have a couple fully full-fledged distributors now in Massachusetts. And even then, it’s not the same. Because in Massachusetts, uh, they can’t really buy the product from you wholesale. It’s essentially consignment distribution where they can [00:10:00] warehouse it and they can distribute it, uh, to people.
[00:10:02] But you don’t get paid for the product until the dispensary pays for it. So, uh, in, you know, that can cause a lot of cash flow issues, but also just the expense and the cost of it. So it’s really key to have internal logistics for distribution if you’re a manufacturing license in, in Massachusetts. And that unfortunately was not something that our first manufacturing partner had in the state.
[00:10:21] You know, I like to think that we were one of the earliest, uh, companies doing the style of manufacturing. We were where we actually provided the equipment and the personnel, um, and the expertise in know how to set up these manufacturing lines inside somebody else’s license. And that worked off sort of a service, um, agreement with them, which at the time our attorney said he hadn’t seen elsewhere in the state.
[00:10:43] So we were one of the early people to really be able to bring a brand that wasn’t, um, you know, owned by auf manufacturing license into the state. Um, at least, you know, in a small and independent way. And that allowed us to remain a little bit more capital efficient. Um, in terms of our raise, it means that we didn’t [00:11:00] have to overshoot and, you know, that, that really helped us get off the ground in a strong way.
[00:11:05] Uh, where we were, I think Bdsa actually had us listed as one of the top 10 retailing beverages in any type country within 60 days for a launch. That’s incredible. Was there any
[00:11:15]Kellan Finney: other major differences between like the California market and Massachusetts market?
[00:11:19]Adam Terry: Oh, I mean, between my time in California, I mean, I worked in California in 2015.
[00:11:23] Yeah. So the differences were myriad and almost indescribable in terms of the level. I mean, it was almost unregulated when I was out there in 2015. It was medical, right? You know? Yeah. I mean, I had a med card and we all had to have med cards. You did have have one You did. We were operating within the parameters of the law that existed, which I’m pretty sure like the regulations went as far as like medical marijuana is now legal and you must have a med card and non-profit.
[00:11:48] I’m not sure how much else exist. Like vapor, I was making largely vapor cartridges out there, uh, for a brand that still exists. And, uh, they just, there were no, you didn’t have to test your [00:12:00] product. Uh, we still did because, uh, frankly, you know, it’s a marketing aspect if you want to like, sell your product at the time.
[00:12:08] It’s like, who’s got the highest THC results? Um, and do you remember
[00:12:11]Kellan Finney: when they brought pesticide tests online for the first time?
[00:12:14]Adam Terry: I actually had already left California when they, when they dictated that, um, which was a whole thing because actually it happened right after I left. So I still had many friends there.
[00:12:22] Said we had to basically remove everything from our facility, scrub it down and start over, uh, because there was pesticides on everything at time, everything. So I left California in like, uh, October. 2016 or, uh, I, I left the state the end of that year, but I left that job in October, so right before the election happened and Prop 64 passed.
[00:12:43] Yeah. Part of the reason I left is because I was looking at the regulations, I was looking at the facility I was working, and I said, There’s no way this company ever meets these regulations. And I believe they do, uh, at this point in time. Uh, but I, I think I was still largely right, almost nobody met the regulations when they actually went into effect.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] And so it took years for them to start even actually trying to enforce these things because, you know, there was no BioTrack then in California. There was no metric. Uh, and it wouldn’t be until I moved back to East Coast and started working in New Hampshire that even saw BioTrack or received a sales system for the first time.
[00:13:17] But it was also one of the very few people on the east coast at that time who actually knew how to extract cannabis professionally. Uh, and so that was one of the motivating forces and be returning to the East Coast was I really felt like an opportunity for people who knew how to extract and infuse things.
[00:13:32] Um, in a way that just didn’t really exist in 20 or early 2017, uh, in Massa. .
[00:13:40]Bryan Fields: So slightly switching gears can trip. What are the early flavors and how did you come up with the dosing mechanism for how, for how much you put in
[00:13:47]Adam Terry: each can? Yeah, that’s a good question. Uh, early flavors, lemon, basal ginger peach and grapefruit hibiscus were what we launched with, uh, a little insider infos, that the first product I wanted to make was actually something I called [00:14:00] Berry Dream.
[00:14:00] Just Andrew Berries have these great really tart pink berries. Uh, they’re also known as the five flavored Barrier ocha. Uh, and there’s actually a local grower in Massachusetts, but the berries were very expensive and more to the point, I don’t think anybody knew what they were. So I decided to go something a little bit more accessible to the human population.
[00:14:17] Um, from the very beginning I wanted to have terpenes, uh, infused in them as well. That was really important to me. Just for flavor purposes, I really wanted to create flavors that blended with the taste of cannabis because I had created a lot of products that were essentially, you know, raspberry with cannabis underneath, or cherry with cannabis underneath.
[00:14:32] And I never felt like that was the ideal way to blending. I was a bartender for a very long time. I have a, you know, I like to think I have a fairly well developed palette, so I focused on creating things I thought would blend with the taste of cannabis and terpenes were an important part. Um, just really exciting to work with up beverage.
[00:14:48] I mean, uh, I honestly, if I did go back to bartending at some point, might start to use terpenes directly in cocktails because they have such marvelously complex flavors and you only need a tiny drop. So we like to think it as like a garnish [00:15:00] on the, the cocktail. The grapefruit was also originally grapefruit elder flower, which eventually changed hibiscus, uh, because I like the flavor and I like the pink.
[00:15:07] Grape Forbis continues to be one of our most popular flavors. Um, in terms of choosing the dosing, it was originally gonna be two and a half by two and a half. In terms of THC and cbd, I really want to low dose products, so less than the, uh, the maximum allowed in Massachusetts, which is five milligrams.
[00:15:22] Cuz I want to encourage people to drink more than one in evening and make it taste good enough that they would, you know, seek to, you know, we all have that problem where you eat a really good canvas infused gummy, and then you want to eat more gummies, but, uh, you probably shouldn’t because you’ll get way too stems.
[00:15:36] Uh, which is why it’s important to buy a bag of uninfused gummies when you do go to take a gummy, in my opinion. But the three by two ended up as a, it just felt better honestly when trying it. And I thought it was gonna be easier basically to hit our testing ranges with, uh, with an integer than try to say like 2.5 specifically.
[00:15:55] Because as anyone who’s tried to do cannabis testing, particularly in the beverage space node is, you know, there is [00:16:00] going to be testing variants. And so if you claim to be two and a half, but like you’re 2.7, I think. There’s less forgiveness there than if you claim to be three and you’re at 2.7. Um, to be honest.
[00:16:11] So it’s, it’s all in that range, um, which I think is perfectly kind of acceptable. And there’s, I think a 5% variance in cannabis testing is as good as you can really hope for on average. And I’ve seen a lot of MSOs like data sheets that suggest they have much wilder swings than that. Um, but part of it is the consistency of creation and even bigger part of it is just the consistency of testing between different matrices.
[00:16:32] Um, beverage is a particularly difficult matric, uh, matrix to test. Uh, and so a lot of, uh, testing labs, especially in their earlier days, struggle to actually recover all the THC that’s trapped inside the, the emulsification.
[00:16:45]Bryan Fields: Is it challenging trying to balance the formulation of those different characteristics of the products and then have the, the cannabis actually highlight with all the terpenes?
[00:16:52] Is that, is that a challenge or with, based on your skillset with the, the background and the bartending, that was something that you were comfortable with and just easily navigated. . [00:17:00] Yeah.
[00:17:00]Adam Terry: It’s not that hard for me to create a, a beverage that doesn’t, actually, most people don’t detect any cannabis taste at all, and it’s because it’s blended in there.
[00:17:06] I mean, I don’t know if I could create a lemon line that wouldn’t have any cannabis taste, but frankly, at the, the dilution levels we’re talking about, we have a 12 ounce beverage that’s roughly 355 grams of fluid. We’re putting in five milligrams of, uh, cannabinoids. So that leaves you a lot of room. I will say though, that I have, you know, I have tried out 50 milligram beverages with my own recipes and you can definitely taste the, can a little bit stronger.
[00:17:29] Um, but you know, some people still don’t really notice that some people have, you know, of really will willful blindness when it comes to cannabis flavor. To be honest, I think it’s people who’ve tried edibles more and more frequently. They get used to it and they stop noticing it. But for the most part, people don’t really taste cannabis in any of the can trips.
[00:17:45] Uh, and that that is intent, uh, intentional by design. And that’s just something that’s is relatively easy for me. When you spend years trying to make cocktails that don’t taste like cough syrup, you start to figure out what the elements are and it’s usually keep it simple, certain, you know, know how [00:18:00] certain flavors work together and then build from there.
[00:18:02] Um, you know, you can break flavor. Do I do something called flavor analysis when I. Go to make new things where I take what I want in terms of flavor, I break it down as to what I think in terms of its tasting notes, its constituent flavors are, and then I seek those flavorings and build them back up. I just did the same with the root beer, and I’m a lot more pleased with the root beer that I built from, um, sort of like constituent flavor components than the, you know, default beer flavoring that the, the flavor has provided.
[00:18:28] So that’s one of the things I do love best about my job is, is creating these things. Is there any
[00:18:34]Kellan Finney: flavors that just absolutely don’t work
[00:18:36]Adam Terry: with cannabis? Uh, sharing is actually always a really difficult one I find to work with. With cannabis. I don’t, I think it actually has more to do with c b D, you know, I’ve talked to some food scientists about why that might be, there might be a, you know, a interaction between the benzel, the high that is a primary constituent of the cherry flavor.
[00:18:54] With cannabidiol itself, I really struggled to make a good tasting like sea, like cherry [00:19:00] cbd. But, uh, for the most part, I haven’t struggled with it as much with thc. Um, and a lot of it has to do with dilution rates. Uh, but you know, for the most part you can make almost anything work. It’s just what is your tolerance for that cannabis flavor?
[00:19:14] Are you willing to blend in something, you know, more interesting to kind of work with it? I just think generally, like using a fruit or citrus flavor on its own, you’re always gonna taste the cannabis below it. Um, but I had these sort of like herbal and spice twists that we use kind of in cleansing with that bitterness a little bit better.
[00:19:31] Um, I would also, you know, suggest that Citrix acid and tartness do a lot to sort of counteract the, um, uh, the bitterness of cannabis. You know, bitterness is a very specific flavor profile. Cannabis is more than just bitter. It’s got earthy toms, it’s got a very specific cannabis taste to it as well. Uh, but bitterness is there and tartness usually counteracts bitterness, um, in a similar way that an acid counteracts base.
[00:19:56]Bryan Fields: to clarify your products have THC and CBD in them? [00:20:00] Not
[00:20:00]Adam Terry: all of them, uh, but most of them do. Uh, our original low dose line has three milligrams of THC and two milligrams of cbd. We have our higher dose line at five milligrams of THC in Massachusetts. And I don’t know when this podcast is gonna air, but by next month we might have 50 milligram beverages out in Minnesota.
[00:20:17] Ooh,
[00:20:17]Bryan Fields: breaking, um, what, why was that important in the combination? Was it to try and reduce the, the psycho activeness of the products or was there another reason behind it?
[00:20:25]Adam Terry: Yeah, I think it creates a more social experience. I think having CBD there, you know what, I think what ultimately we found is that it does counteract this psycho activeness, or at least the way that people notice psycho.
[00:20:39] And that has actually in some ways been a detriment. Cause people will be high, not think that they’re high. Um, this is happened with my mother-in-law, uh, who drank one and said, uh, you know, I didn’t feel anything, but I also never heard her stop talking for three hours. Uh, . At, at a time. So I’m absolutely certain it worked.
[00:20:57] And so there is definitely like less of a, [00:21:00] a THC forward effect when you add that cbd, which is why for the five milligrams we chose to not put, uh, additional CBD in there and we get pretty good feedback on it. But overall, the cbd, at least I, from a personal standpoint, I find it lot easier to continue to hang out with people when I have some CBD in my system.
[00:21:18] I also am a big proponent of, you know, using CBD along with thc. Cause I think THC works better. I also think CBD for me doesn’t, you know, have much impact unless there’s THC with it. You experiment with any otherize. I’m experimenting with some for a line I’m working on that should come out next year. Um, definitely.
[00:21:38] What’s the,
[00:21:39]Kellan Finney: what’s the biggest challenge with working with those minors? Is it the price or is it just the, the different
[00:21:43]Adam Terry: chemistry associated? Yeah, I haven’t even gone into like full pricing yet, but that’s almost certainly gonna, I haven’t found like, significantly different chemistry between cannabinoids when it comes to flavors, uh, so far in a, in several years of working with them.
[00:21:55] I was doing a, a different consulting project with cbg, uh, relatively [00:22:00] recently, and I didn’t notice any material impact of using a different cannabinoid. I mean, they’re, they’re pretty close, like chemically speaking, and while minor, like small changes can create big effects, they don’t always. Um, and so, you know, so far I haven’t found any cannabinoid that is like particularly thorning to work with.
[00:22:18]Bryan Fields: So when your mother-in-law mentions to you that she’s not really sure if she’s feeling it, that’s one of the bigger challenges, right in, in the low dose beverages is that people are assuming one thing and then they, they experience it and while they might be feeling it, they’re unsure if they are. So how do you have that conversation to make her feel comfortable so that others that are not your mother-in-law can experiment and then continue to buy your product?
[00:22:40]Adam Terry: I honestly don’t have a good answer to that. If I did, I’d probably sell a lot more can trip. The, uh, the fact is like, I think we see in Massachusetts, you know, we had our theory of the case, which took below dose. I think that is, uh, you know, validated by the biggest can beverage company and that the world right now is can who primarily started out on these micro doses?[00:23:00]
[00:23:00] I don’t think that held in Massachusetts. Lev is still the biggest, uh, player here in the state. They only make five milligram beverages, and we see that as soon as we launched our first five milligram beverages, they started outperforming the Lotus immediately. I think people want to feel like they’re high the same way.
[00:23:17] If you drank, uh, beer and you didn’t feel like you were getting drunk, you’d say something like, say something was off. No, and honestly, it’s, you know, as much as it’s frustrating because I do know that if someone drank the second can trip, they’d probably start feeling more stoned. These things are still pretty expensive overall at retail.
[00:23:33] You’re talking five to seven bucks a can. So people want to feel something off one. Um, and I think the five milligram dosing profile has been largely more successful in this state than a low dosing profile. Uh, and we may have to make adjustments in the future, uh, to, to account for that. Well, I don’t,
[00:23:49]Bryan Fields: Hold on a second.
[00:23:49] I don’t disagree, Adam on, on that. But if someone has one beer and they don’t feel anything, they’re not showing Inclination is the drinking second beer, which I think is, is where we want people to be with the low dose [00:24:00] beverages.
[00:24:00]Kellan Finney: But people like you can go buy three, two beer, right? Which is lower alcohol concentration than normal beer.
[00:24:05] People don’t buy three, two beer. They buy regular beer that has 2% more alcohol in it because they know that they’re, you know what I mean? Like, people aren’t gonna buy the three, two beer. So like, I think that, like with beer, it’s a psychological difference, right? Like you already know that if you drink four beers, you’re gonna get drunk.
[00:24:22] That first one just didn’t kick in fast. And like when you’re young, you drink a couple beers, it’s a completely different situation, but by the time you’re like in your mid twenties and you’ve done it, been around the rodeo a couple times, it’s a like a psychologically different experience. And I think with cannabis, because there is the prohibition, you’re seeing this massive other difference in my opinion.
[00:24:41] So I think it’s like, it’s trying to compare apples to oranges with cannabis and beer because like consumers know that if they drink enough beer they’re gonna get drunk. They don’t know if they’re gonna get high from drinking cannabis cuz like my mom literally says that she can’t eat enough edibles to get high and she just doesn’t eat edibles.
[00:24:57]Adam Terry: That is its own problem that, you know, can’t trip, [00:25:00] uh, faces as well, which is just some people have incredibly high thresholds or you. Infinite threshold. There’s some people that just don’t get high in edibles, but I think that’s exactly right, co. And I think the other part of it is you buy a beer in a liquor store and it’s gonna cost you at like two to three bucks a can, uh, at the end of the day.
[00:25:16] And can, Tripp is gonna cost you, Most places are five for a lower dose and step in for the higher dose. Uh, and it’s, it’s kind of frustrating cause a lot of people still, a lot of retailers do actually charge seven for the lower dose one, which means they’re taking more than a hundred percent markup on the, the wholesale price.
[00:25:33] And it also means that they’re moving less velocity and people are less willing to buy a couple of them. So there’s a couple frustrations that also come along with not controlling your retailer, not controlling your retail price. Um, you know, we thought we could affect that through wholesale pricing and it just really didn’t move, uh, in the way that we wanted, but, It’s scale, it’s points of distribution.
[00:25:54] All those things kind of make it so that beverage is gonna continue to be a really tough market, uh, in [00:26:00] any of the regulated marijuana states, uh, until things significantly change. And I’m glad Can’t Trip went in when it did because I said this when I was actually fundraising. If I can’t get this online in 2021, we’re not doing this.
[00:26:11] Because that was, I think, still the last good opportunity to get online for beverages in Massachusetts. Uh, you know, we will luckily be able to ride that wave into New York State and be one of the very first people online in the regulated marijuana market there. Um, we’ll hopefully ride that wave into Connecticut and the other Northeast states, but.
[00:26:31] You know, I, I see other brands coming online in Massachusetts and you know, I know they exist, but they only register on the boards. When you look at p DSA or headset or anyone, um, the exclusion of a couple powder drinks that are kind of crushing it out there, um, there’s just only so much shelf space and only so much total addressable markets.
[00:26:49] So if you don’t have a chunk there, then you’re gonna be really struggling to, to carve out space.
[00:26:55]Kellan Finney: Brian and I looked at beverages out in Colorado, I think, was it last year, Brian? [00:27:00] Yeah. And it was just the, kind of the exact same, uh, what you just described was what we kind of determined from just our analysis of the market, just cuz it’s such a mature industry that life, like you just said, there’s just no way to carve out your own piece after people have been sitting on those shelves for a couple years, you know?
[00:27:20] Yeah.
[00:27:21]Bryan Fields: There’s just so many products. I was in Canada and I went to a dispensary and I opened up the fridge. I was like, Where’s the beverages? He pointed me the fridge. I opened up the fridge and there was. Hundreds of different products. And I was like, this is the most overwhelming experience. And I just did what, like a, a very poor, simple producer did is I just reached for like one and eye level that was like a flavor that I like and just grabbed the first one.
[00:27:41] Cause I was like, this is, this is overwhelming, right? There’s too many choices. Grabbed that and just left and was like, I can’t believe how many people are competing for such a tiny, tiny purchasing decision on a tiny, tiny ship. And it’s risk. Extremely
[00:27:54]Adam Terry: competitive. It’s extremely, And it’s, it’s even crazier to think that like, it’s also one of the most difficult [00:28:00] things to set up in a regulated cannabis licenses, uh, beverage line cuz most places are cannabis village.
[00:28:06] Do not. Build in large amounts of storage space. They do not build in floor drains. They do not build in the kind of electric and water infrastructure that you need for these things. And it costs, like, you know, depending on how big you build it, but it can easily run into the millions just to get a ba pretty basic setup online.
[00:28:22] Um, for pretty regular volume. You can do like a small scale thing for about a hundred grand. But to get into any sort of reasonable production quantities, you need to be spending, you know, between 500 and a million at a minimum. And, you know, a lot of places are gonna sit down like, Well, I have the same license, can make beverages and it can make vapes.
[00:28:40] So which one is gonna do better for me? Even if B vapes are also incredibly competitive if beverage is just as competitive, origins lower. You know, it’s, it’s real tough, but, you know, big is also a tough marketplace. Um, so, you know, you gotta make your choices on how you build your, your menu and your facility.
[00:28:58] But that’s also one of the things [00:29:00] that drives prices beverage is, is it’s not like I have a plethora of options to go to and I can just go to the manufacturing on the street. I mean, we, we, one of the biggest canning lines in the state when we started, and that was like, I could basically do like 10 cases an hour,
[00:29:13] It was pretty small and slow. We were like in a corner, but we, uh, we made it work and, uh, you know, we were nowhere near what Levy was doing, like a hundred cans a minute, uh, on their line when they, uh, when they upgraded, I think like midway through their first, uh, first year. But yeah, there’s still only really like five successful brands that say in Massachusetts and beverage space.
[00:29:35] And there’s maybe like three or four more and a lot more coming online that I’m hearing about. But I don’t see how any of them are gonna, uh, really get shelf space. Who do you think,
[00:29:44]Bryan Fields: Go ahead, Brad. Who do you think is a, a targeted consumer for infused beverages?
[00:29:51]Adam Terry: Definitely what we’re finding is that it is a lot of people’s gateway in, um, and bore, Jordan actually said this I think at fencing it back in April, which I thought [00:30:00] was a pretty keen insight from a man who has said some pretty wild things about beverage, uh, thereafter
[00:30:05] But he said that people are coming in through more highly formulated products and beverage is nothing if not one of the most highly formulated products in the cannabis space. I think that’s right. You know, it’s a familiar format for people. I think overall five milligrams in a beverage does hit different than five milligrams in a regular edible.
[00:30:22] And I think it hits like softer, um, I think can be as like as or more bio available, but it seems to hit differently where it doesn’t like impact people as much. And this is from an array of beverages I’ve had with multiple infusion technologies, including my own. I find that it’s generally, you know, something like a 10 to 15 minute up.
[00:30:43] Um, peak at around 30 minutes and then offset between 60 and 90 minutes. Um, even at the five milligram range, sometimes it’ll last a bit longer. I think that can depend on how much makes it into your liver or not. But for the most part, it seems to be a softer high. So I can drink multiple five milligram beverages in a day [00:31:00] and get pretty stoned, but feel pretty fun.
[00:31:01] Whereas when I eat, if I eat multiple five milligram gummies in a day, I’m really gonna get that like Del or that hydroxy 11 THC effect that’s gonna make me way too stoned. So they’re a little bit safer. They’re harder to screw up, I think, when it comes to your own dosing profile. And I think they’re just more recognizable.
[00:31:20] So people can’t really focus on, you know, don’t have to learn to. Then I’m telling her to vape. It always drew me nuts when I made vapes. Like people would constantly like complain that it was too complicated to use when there was like a button to press . Uh, it’s like the button was like, I had to write directions, be like, press the button as you inhale, and people are like, I don’t really know.
[00:31:38] That sounds a little tricky to me, as opposed to like dab rigs where people are heating nails and free base in cannabis. Um, , I digress, but the, uh, I think the, the general demo, like that’s not really a demographic, right? Like people coming into cannabis and if I gunned to my head demographic skews towards, uh, women overall and skews towards honestly higher earners.
[00:31:59] I [00:32:00] think we’ve seen in, uh, there was like an internal study by one of these companies that suggested that people who purchase beverages on average are making like over a hundred grand a year. People who purchase concentrates on average are making like 40 or 50 grand a year. So definitely skew towards some more wealthy, which I think tracks with, you know, the cost of these things per milligram of thc.
[00:32:19] but the, the demographics used towards women and wealthier women. So I think we’re gonna see like a lot of millennial professionals focused on these things and, and doing the purchasing, but also just a tremendous amount of people coming into the cannabis industry. And I think that’s kind of what makes us, uh, sort of the gateway, the gateway drug of cannabis.
[00:32:36] Yeah, Grant
[00:32:37]Kellan Finney: grant’s also, like, it’s also something that, uh, consumers are comfortable with from like a inebriation standpoint, right? We were talking about beer earlier, like people are comfortable drinking something out of a can that’s gonna inebriate them versus smoking or any other like, form factor.
[00:32:55] And most people don’t eat an edible or eat like a gummy bear or piece of chocolate and expect to be [00:33:00] messed up from it like a couple hours later. So I think it’s probably the most comfortable, uh, avenue in for
[00:33:06]Adam Terry: most new consumers. I mean, honestly, this is, I don’t know if this is the next topic, but this is for me is like the segue is to why, um, Beverages are gonna continue to struggle so long as they’re contained with only, only within dispensaries.
[00:33:22] Um, and I think it’s, for me, it’s, it’s a lot because people who might try beverage aren’t necessarily showing up to the weed store in the first place. And these dispensaries really limit like who’s coming to get things. And it’s a lot harder to sell a five milligram beverage to somebody who’s already buying joints and dabs, um, than it is to sell a five milligram beverage to somebody who might be just picking up groceries or like, you know, uh, butt light for the weekend.
[00:33:48] And so, really point, Minnesota’s really represented an interesting opportunity for the beverage market. And you’ve seen players including Cant Tripp like Rush in there because the points of distribution are so much broader and pretty [00:34:00] immediately, uh, you know, stores are taking this on. We’re seeing massive growth inside.
[00:34:04] There’s just a gold rush going on in Minnesota right now for cannabis background. Do you wanna, do
[00:34:08]Kellan Finney: you wanna educate our listeners to what’s going on in Minnesota that’s
[00:34:10]Adam Terry: different than Massachusetts? . Yeah. So the, the key to Minnesota in terms of the legal difference is that Minnesota has legalized Delta nine thc, the same molecule that is, you know, typically of interest in regulated marijuana markets, but derived from hemp and the legal, the, the distinction between hemp and marijuana as far as I can tell, is simply a legal distinction.
[00:34:33] Having nothing to do with the actual, you know, uh, component genetics of the plan other than is a hemp is considering anything is grown under the hemp program. So the, you know, compliant with the 2018 US Farm Bill, uh, and also having less than 0.3% of Delta nine thc either when of both when it’s grown and then when it’s sold to a consumer.
[00:34:55] There may be nuances within there too, but essentially, you know, if you grow hemp, you have to get [00:35:00] rid of it. If it’s over 0.3% delta I thc, um, and you can continue to process it from there. If you do, I think you get some remediation options too. Not that familiar with the ins and outs, but at the end of the day now, there’s a program where if you can get the, the THC derived from hemp, um, inside Minnesota, then you can manufacture, You don’t need a special license that takes, you know, 2 3 years to get and, you know, uh, Fort Knox level security system to, to make it.
[00:35:27] And the, the only limita, the only two real limitations are it must be still less, than 0.3% Delta in thc. So compliant with the farm bill that’s checked off pretty easily by most beverages, because most beverages are in the, you know, one 1000 of a percent range or one 100th, uh, when it comes to actual biomass. And then the, uh, the other limitation in Minnesota is that you get up to five milligrams per serving.
[00:35:50] Uh, or 50 milligrams per container. Uh, so those are the, the two matrices that you get to play by. The regulations are otherwise pretty light in Minnesota. [00:36:00] And what that has allowed is at a pretty thriving market. So instead of, you know, there’s 5,000 breweries in Minnesota, they actually minnesota’s a home, like a, a hub for manufacturing, brew, and distillery equipment.
[00:36:12] It’s actually where I got all the equipment for my other business, which is a distillery. The, uh, the, all these beverage lines can now be used for canvas, which means that you have a lot more options, which means you can get more competitive pricing, which means pricing can go down. You can also have traditional distributions.
[00:36:27] So somebody who doesn’t need to spend years waiting for a license can distribute these products across the state. And so we have basically a normal three tier, uh, system. As Brian, you have noted, uh, numerous times, uh, not only in this call, but. Twitter over and over again. There’s a lot of challenges in cannabis, which is why you should download the, the Dime Playbook.
[00:36:46] Uh, but the, yeah, it’s a CPG on its own is one of the most difficult businesses, uh, there is out there. You are paying real money to make a fiscal product that needs to be moved to a place, sold to a consumer. [00:37:00] When you add the CAM challenges, everything gets that much more difficult. This is why you don’t see beverages below $7 for five milligrams in Massachusetts, unless they’re, you know, on sale or in bulk pricing.
[00:37:10] In Minnesota, there’s a real shot. You can buy something for four or five, oh, less than four bucks. At the, at the shelf, because you have all of these preexisting channels and infrastructures, you can take advantage of that, you know, almost every other business gets to take advantage of. Uh, and so that is really opened the opportunity.
[00:37:26] And more importantly, a lot more people are gonna be exposed to your product because you can sell it in grocery stores, liquor stores, uh, restaurants. There’s really no limitation on where you can sell it. Long as the municipality hasn’t banded, you must be 20 or one year old to buy it, so you must still card people.
[00:37:41] Um, but you know, there, there’s also some gray area it looks like when it comes to liquor stores itself, because in Minnesota, this is one of the strangest laws I’ve ever heard about liquor store, Minnesota. There’s a list of things you were allowed to sell at a liquor store, uh, which is unlike I think every other state where there’s a list of things you can’t sell at a liquor store.
[00:37:59] Uh, [00:38:00] and cannabis is not technically on the list of things you can sell in a liquor store in Minnesota, but I think there’s some gray area because you consider it a soda. You consider it. Other things, I don’t know. The attorneys out there are honestly still kind of figuring this all out and so is the State House.
[00:38:14] But for the moment it’s pretty lightly regulated. There are probably more regulations in the future, but it has created this huge opportunity for, um, beverages and Can Tripp was one of the first, if not the first, uh, cannabis beverage that is also in a regulated marijuana market out there. Um, can is also out there as well.
[00:38:33] And then, uh, almost every brewery seems to be coming up with ad beverage now, which is interesting cuz I’ll be back out there next week and get to try a few more of them. But most of them I have tried, if not been stellar. Um, a lot of people are not so used to working with cannabis in a beverage and it’s not the easiest thing to create a taste for.
[00:38:49] So I think people are trying to figure that out, uh, right now. And that’s, that’s left a lot of opportunity for people to kind of sorted all of their stuff out already.
[00:38:57]Kellan Finney: I mean, pretty incredible. It can be just sitting there next to like [00:39:00] a Bud Light or a Budweiser, or Milos
[00:39:02]Adam Terry: or whatever you wanna call it.
[00:39:04] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was great to go to a bar and purchase my product at a bar. It, interestingly enough to like the early days of California, there’s some amount of self-regulation that seems to be happening. A lot of on-prem locations are, uh, restricting THC s to like three cans, Uh, makes sense during a visit.
[00:39:22] So this way people aren’t getting, like, we don’t have a lot of clarifying precedent around what happens if a bar gets somebody high and sends them home and they get into a car crash, Right? Like, whereas we have specific laws in this country around what happens if you do that for alcohol. Um, the bar is liable.
[00:39:36] So that’s, you know, one of the, the things that they’re gonna have to face and insurance underwriters are scrambling to figure out what’s going on. I talked to. Different marketing companies out there, you know, who own billboards and other media. They’re like, we don’t even know what to do yet because, uh, you know, there’s other, like, you know, Massachusetts requires warning language on billboards and things like that.
[00:39:56] Um, but they don’t have anything to like for that. So it’s all very [00:40:00] new. Um, but it’s really interesting because in a lot of ways this was kind of already legal in Minnesota and they just kind of clarified the laws, which is one reason they passed in the first place was to clarify like preexisting law around how much teach so you can put in a product under the Farm bill, because the farm bill does allow you up to 0.3%.
[00:40:19] And if you guys are out there doing the math, uh, a lot of edibles meet that, uh, that, you know, arrangement. So there’s a lot of s that could be, you know, sourced from hemp and sold thc, you know, in any state that doesn’t ban it. It’s really unclear what’s going on, but there. There were already existing beverages in the Minnesota marketplace before this law passed.
[00:40:39] There were already existing edibles, and if you do some Googling online, you can absolutely find right now somebody willing to ship you delta i THC deriv from that to your house. So whether or not the government decides to do anything about that is hard to say. You know, as it stands right now, the FDA doesn’t actually consider it legal to be selling CBD across state lines in food products, uh, because there’s something called the drug [00:41:00] preclusion rule because Epidiolex, uh, which is an epilepsy treatment with CBD, is the active ingredient that was passed through phase three trials and approved in 2018, actually, which was kind of funny.
[00:41:11] Uh, the farm bill passed, uh, later that year, and suddenly the question of what can you put CBD in was, was really unclear because technically the FDA considers it a drug. You can’t put drugs in food. You know, you can’t take Viagra and put it in a bunch of gummies and sell it, uh, you know, over the counter to people.
[00:41:30] Well, you could. But you probably can’t. So the FDA already considers it kind of illegal to ship CBD overstate lines in, uh, in uh, even derived from hemp. And Delta I THC would follow under the same exclusion, which is that, you know, it’s delta I THC may be derived from hemp, but it may hit that your 0.3% standard, but there is a drug maral which excess, uh, which would then, you know, further debilitate these things.
[00:41:53] So the FDA actually just appoint a new person, I think in charge of cannabis policy. I think his name is Noah [00:42:00] Bien Mo. Um, and he is actually some cannabis regulatory experience. So that was an interesting move when coupled with Biden’s, sort of pardons last week that’d say, say to me that the FDA is gonna take a post or look at.
[00:42:11] It’s unclear what that’s gonna mean for the marketplace. It’s certainly, I think, still riskier to be selling in Minnesota from like a, a pure perspective of, you know, the regulations could change and then your business has to change with it, but the opportunity is so great that can Trip said was worth it.
[00:42:24] And so did, Can who’s, you know, can Tripp is probably one of the, the lowest funded cannabis beverages, uh, in the regulated marijuana markets and can is probably the highest funded one. So we’ve, uh, we’ve really, I think, matched, uh, matched your energies here and, you know, I appreciate can for what they’ve done.
[00:42:40] They’re a great brand with great marketing and of good people. So, uh, I’m really excited to be kind of like in that same space alongside them.
[00:42:48]Bryan Fields: So, just
[00:42:48] to clarify, a 21, an older individual can go to a supermarket and purchase a cannabis beverage in Minnesota. .
[00:42:58]Adam Terry: Yeah, that’s,
[00:42:59] that’s [00:43:00] correct. As long as the supermarket is well in sell.
[00:43:02] Um, and we’re definitely seeing convenience stores, gas stations, uh, pick this kind of stuff up. I mean, imagine any place you see of beverage do you could technically do that. No. So do you think
[00:43:11]Bryan Fields: the consumers will know though, that these are cannabis products? They’re not though. They’re have products, right?
[00:43:18] Yes. But if you consume them and you get high, like, well,
[00:43:21]Kellan Finney: piece
[00:43:22]Adam Terry: cannabis. First of all, hemp is cannabis. It sort of squares, squares and rectangles. Right? Hemp and marijuana are both, uh, forms of cannabis. Same. Same, but different. They, well, they’re legal designations, right? So they should know it’s cannabis.
[00:43:35] All of our packaging says in big, bold letters that THC in this product. You know, there’s a certain amount of self-regulation, which I think is also important by the companies themselves to say, like, from a public health perspective, I don’t want anyone drinking this who is not prepared to drink th.
[00:43:49] Especially as uh, you know, if we move into other, um, stronger products as you can do in Minnesota with the appropriate scoring of your servings. I don’t want somebody drinking norm soda thinking it’s a regular arm [00:44:00] soda and drink 50 milligrams of thc. So it’s pretty big and bold and you know, there debates about that cuz like maybe the government then, you know, that makes a bigger signal to the FDA to do something about it.
[00:44:10] But I’d rather make accurate statements about what’s inside the can. Um, you know, in the interest of my consumers. Cause I don’t think it looks very good for the brand either to be pushing something which is deceptive. Um, so ours says cannabis infused, we use still warning language, similar but not identical to what we would use a Massachusetts because we feel that it’s important.
[00:44:31] You know, make, you know, clear attritions to, you know, the FDA is not approved this product, um, you know, keep this product away from children. We actually use the contains THC symbol that you see in Massachusetts directly on the can as well. Um, so it, you know, it has a lot of the same designations that would indicate it is a cannabis product.
[00:44:49] You know, we’ve never put big weed leaps on our product, but I think THC does, does a pretty good job of communicating what it is in cannabis infuse. So there shouldn’t be any confusion. I hope there isn’t. I haven’t heard any, [00:45:00] uh, any feedback about people being confused about it yet. But
[00:45:03]Kellan Finney: are there any huge differences from a regulatory standpoint on what you need to include on the label in Minnesota versus Massachusetts?
[00:45:11]Adam Terry: Yeah, Minnesota has a lot less language surrounding that. The only that’s thing that you must put on there is the dosing information. All of the same information you put on for any food product and the statement, keep this product away from children. You don’t even have to put anything that technically like you should.
[00:45:27] What’s in it, right? THCs in it. So you should put that on there. But there you don’t have the same, like, don’t drive or operate a machine well under this product or you know, there’s a lot of very long, uh, you know, warning language in Massachusetts that is not required in Minnesota. But we put pretty similar statements on the, the product in Minnesota because we do feel like, uh, those statements were generally created in the best interest of public health.
[00:45:50] Um, and we want to comply with that. The self
[00:45:53]Bryan Fields: regulations and you having to interpret what you think is best just leads to so many more challenges across the industry because not everyone likely will take [00:46:00] the same path as you. And one of the things that concerns me most just hearing this is if you’re sitting at a bar, right?
[00:46:05] You take two couple shots of James in feeling really good and go, Oh, that’s Adam Terry’s brand over there. I’m gonna take a 50 milligram beverage. I’m gonna have one of those. And the combination of alcohol and cannabis is gonna lead to some other hurdles that none of us can even foresee because the combination of those is gonna be altering.
[00:46:19] So Adam, what did you think about the potential combination of those, those two beverages? ?
[00:46:25]Adam Terry: Yeah, that’s a pretty good question. It’s definitely a call that bartenders are gonna have to make and servers, um, you know, there’s a, a history already existing of bartenders having to make pretty tough and discretionary calls around overserving.
[00:46:39] I would certainly, you know, we’re actually, we’ve been talking to our distribu distribution essentially by not putting the 50 milligram beverages in on premise locations and focusing only on off premise locations. And that’s one of the reasons for it. We just don’t think it’s necessary, you know, if bars are only willing to give you a three five milligram beverages, why would they be willing to give you a 50 milligram anyway?
[00:46:58] So I think from a, [00:47:00] a liability standpoint, I don’t expect to see those higher dose beverages in bars. They’re mostly gonna be for take homes. And interesting thing is, so there’s actually an exemption in Minnesota for the child resistant requirement for beverages. Um, so we can use regular lids out there, which is not what we use in Massachusetts.
[00:47:15] We use those specialty like XO lids, but we actually have chosen to use the XO lids specifically for the high dose products in order to ensure that they’re reclosable, so that people don’t feel compelled to drink the whole thing in one sitting. They can, you know, actually close it. And these are special design lids that will keep it carbonated, uh, and keep it completely sealed so they can put it back on the refrigerator.
[00:47:35] So, you know, people may not choose to self regulate. Uh, and I don’t in this, in some, in many scenarios, I don’t see that as an advantage. There’s other things around like restriction, restricting yourself on marketing that I think would be a disadvantage if we took, uh, if we, you know, hamstrung ourself, um, waste certain people do.
[00:47:53] In Massachusetts, for example, in Massachusetts, uh, there’s a specific language that says you may not use cartoons on [00:48:00] packaging. And I don’t know what qualifies as a cartoon, but I’ve seen a lot of illustrated characters on packaging in Massachusetts. None of them are like loony tunes. Like, but I think Lowell Smokes is a good example of this.
[00:48:12] It’s literally like a goat man, if I remember correctly, on the front of their package. And that seems to fly in Massachusetts. How is that a cartoon? Is it on a cartoon? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that appealing to children, which I think is the most important part. Um, I think it’s probably terrifying to children to be honest, but the, uh, uh, you know, what is a cartoon like?
[00:48:29] Can I put how far in a human depiction can I go on a, on a label before I’ve crossed that step? And what is the enforcement mechanism? So, you know, like those types of things I would fear, but like, you know, I’m not gonna you. There are certain restrictions m so you can’t on a label, like make something that is deceptively, uh, you know, close to a non-cannabis product or like a well known product.
[00:48:53] So I couldn’t make something that look really close to Coca-Cola. Um, another interesting point of like non regulation is that [00:49:00] Fireball, the brand has a brand of gummies in the THC cannabis space, which is literally the same as a non-cannabis brand. And. They just sell it. I’ve never seen an enforcement action against them.
[00:49:13] Product’s probably pretty good, but I just wouldn’t think it would be allowed to use, Like, I wouldn’t think Coca-Cola could show up to Massachusetts, make a Coca-Cola, infuse beverage, put their, like normal branding on it. And you know, I don’t think the CCC would allow that. I guess fireball’s small enough that they would, they get away with it.
[00:49:28] But, uh, you know, those, those kind of challenges I see it as advantage to self regulate. Like I, the testing regulations in Minnesota say that you can’t have more than trace amounts of microtoxins and, um, a couple other like microbial points, but it does not define what trace amounts are. So we have to define what trace amounts are.
[00:49:47] You know, in our beverages they’re all like non-detectable amounts, um, because it’s actually pretty easy to make a clean beverage, uh, if you know what you’re doing. But, you know, regulating on the cannabinoid [00:50:00] amounts, regulating on how batching is done, those are not super well defined in the Minnesota regulations.
[00:50:06] Um, And so by being good actors and providing that information to our consumers, we build a brand of trust. Like people can trust us because we are putting warning language. In fact, I think putting warning language and putting barcodes that can be well traced and putting proper nutrition facts in your label, people are so used to them that they recognize that as the right thing to do and things look sketchy if they’re not on there.
[00:50:29] So I think we actually look better by putting all that warning language on. And like that’s so true that when people make counterfeits, um, I saw the first like counterfeit can like ca the brand, um, the, the other day and they had all the warning language on it. Most of these places do, I guess maybe cause they’re trying to make it look as rep replicated as possible because things look sketchy when they don’t have like government warnings.
[00:50:52] Even look at your liquor bottles next time you pick up a liquor bottle. Like there are government warnings on there that are required and they do not look correct without them. It’s [00:51:00] just, it becomes part of the scenery. So you think, uh,
[00:51:05]Kellan Finney: cannabis knuckle ever be combin. We were talking about them separate.
[00:51:08] Uh, and also, can you combine them Minnesota based on the current regulations?
[00:51:13]Adam Terry: Uh, that’s a good question. I don’t think so. Um, I don’t know when Massachusetts, that 50
[00:51:20]Kellan Finney: milligram beverage you’re talking about could be a really good like mixer, you know what I mean? It sits, sits next to the Jameson and you just make a mixed drink with a little splash of it, you know?
[00:51:29]Bryan Fields: Did we just make, did we just make the next Four Loco?
[00:51:33]Adam Terry: I, Yeah. Four Loco famously banned K’s over here trying to find anyway that he could mix. Uh, he’s like, We’re, we’re gonna
[00:51:39]Bryan Fields: make Six Loco
[00:51:40]Adam Terry: right now. I, I gotta say, I’m not a big fan of mixing alcohol and cannabis beverages. I don’t think they work very well together, honestly, in terms of like the effect and feeling this where my guy who spent a lot of his, you know, early twenties, uh, cross fade.
[00:51:53] Um, so it’s not like I’ve been against in my entire career. I found particularly canvas beverages, like they don’t feel great with [00:52:00] alcohol. Um, like, like more so than like smoking, uh, itself. Um, so I don’t know, can trip’s never gonna get there? Uh, I don’t think we’re ever gonna make an alcohol piece thing.
[00:52:09] I don’t know what the rules are in Minnesota, but to give you an example of what happened in Massachusetts, cuz I do have a liquor business in Massachusetts when cannabis was legalized, uh, the ABC c, which is the governing body of liquor in Massachusetts, sent a letter to every licensee saying, You may not put, to not even think about whispering cannabis into your beverage.
[00:52:29] Uh, like you cannot buy them in Massachusetts. I would expect to see that trend continued. I mean, ultimately you can add cannabis to alcohol if you want. You just shouldn’t be. I don’t think you should be able to buy them in the same product. I don’t think it’s a very good idea, but the exception of like, you know, concentrated tinctures, It is funny because tinctures, like definitionally speaking are made of alcohol.
[00:52:50] Um, Right. But in cannabis, people pretty quickly move to putting them into oil instead because the, you know, it’s pretty, pretty tough getting that green dragon directly on the tongue. [00:53:00] So what we call a tincture in cannabis is actually frequently not a tinctured by, you know, the classic definition of it, but I digress.
[00:53:08]Bryan Fields: What is one fact operating in the cannabis industry that would surprise or shock others?
[00:53:15]Adam Terry: Demand is not as good as you think it is. , like you don’t have a guaranteed demand for the product going into it. You still as competitive in marketing. Um, and overall because of the restrictions on distribution and manufacturing, the demand is lower than it really should be.
[00:53:31] Like pist demand in Massachusetts is roughly 1.2 billion last year. I think if you had this stuff, At least I think edibles, um, and beverages broadly, like if you made those, uh, freely available in, you know, liquor stores, uh, much of kink you have in Minnesota and then restricted, I think, you know, cannabis Flower and concentrates, basically anything that’s more potent, you’re basically 70% of cannabis sales are now, so babes concentrates flour, actually maybe more like 80% of [00:54:00] the overall market.
[00:54:00] You were restricted that to dispensaries, but then opened up the low dose products all your edibles into regular distribution. I think it would’ve been a $3 billion market last year. I think the, the potential of edibles is largely untapped, so long as we were restricted to these specialty places. And so demand is actually lower than people think it’s gonna be.
[00:54:18] Is one of the hardest things, um, about cannabis because we have VCs in cannabis, right? Like you, you guys are very familiar with beside in and, you know, Measure eight and all these other venture capitalists. Venture capital means something very different consumer package goods than it does in tech. Tech has potentially infinite upside and relatively low necessity for investment and tech.
[00:54:40] You’re investing in largely labor and some sales and marketing in consumer packaged goods, particularly cannabis. You’re investing in infrastructure, you’re investing in building things, you’re investing in, um, ingredients and materials. It’s so much harder to do, and the return is like the potential, maximum return is so much lower.
[00:54:59] The entirety of the cannabis [00:55:00] market in the United States is something like the, what, 40 to $50 billion range. Uh, at least the legal market. You could, I think, open that up to 200, 300 billion pretty easily if you were to open up these edibles into more broad distribution points because people will just not go to the weed.
[00:55:17] Like people who would normally consume cannabis, I think, uh, basically because it was available are not going through the specialty weed stores. They’re out of the way in many cases. Even when they are convenient, you have to, it’s like a whole BRI roll to get through these security places in California and Colorado.
[00:55:33] A lot of ’em still look like head shops. Even when there are like certain nicer stores you can go to. Most places you’re gonna go to or like look like a head shop and a lot of times they have a metal detector out front cause people are showing up with guns and you have to pay it all in cash. All of these things make it like a blaring signal in most people’s subconscious that cannabis is still legal, it’s still something you should engage in.
[00:55:51] It’s still sketchy until we as a country wake up and start putting things where they belong. And again, I do think you could ask the higher [00:56:00] security levels, I think. , you put the weed in the weed store where the weed people go and they will still show up. You will still sell that much flour and concentrates.
[00:56:08] But if you can open up these lower dose products that primarily it’s, it’s not really your flower consumers and your, you know, your, uh, more the traditional consumers going to, you would see demand skyrocket. And that is really the biggest misunderstanding people have about campus. It’s not, you just go in and demands there.
[00:56:27] I’ve seen, I’ve seen people inside campus who’ve been doing it for a few years make that mistake too, particularly those who are used to limited license date, uh, early days in Massachusetts, it was, if you can get a product after market, you could sell it. I, you know, when I was a product developer for an mso, I never had a quote unquote failed product because anything I could get to market would sell.
[00:56:47] Um, but that did not apply when we tried to move some of those same products into California and Colorado. Uh, and so, uh, if you are out there thinking your demand just exists, um, it does not. You have to do it, and you have to do it right. [00:57:00] And, uh, , Sorry, quick aside, cause I know I’ve been going very long on this question.
[00:57:04] I had a guy reach out to me who said he wants to start a cannabis beverage business in New York. And then he has like some people that he knew in distribution and like, I had to basically call this guy and be like, Do not attempt to do this thing that you’re about to do because you don’t even know that.
[00:57:19] Like, he, he alluded to something indicating to me that he, he was like, I think there’s like more regulations around the cannabis business than other businesses. And I was like, Stop. You need to do a lot more research before you attempt to do this thing. Cause he thought like, there’s gonna be a lot of demand there.
[00:57:33] I know how to make a beverage and distribute it. I got this great food scientist, but he hadn’t even read the regulation. Like, realized. It’s just not even in the same world. Like there’s a completely different world. Unless you have somebody who lives and breeds it, you will not be successful. So, you know, shout out to people who read the playbook.
[00:57:50] Uh, hire people who have cannabis experience to start to run your business. If you’re out there and you’re like, I’m just gonna do it and we’re gonna figure it as we go. You have a much higher failure [00:58:00] rate. So bring at least one person on your team who’s been doing this for a while. There’s a lot of us out there now.
[00:58:04] This industry is getting a little bit older. There’s people who have, you know, entire careers in cannabis, so hire them.
[00:58:10]Bryan Fields: Uh, I got shamed for, for that statement that having someone with experience cannabis experience on your team is helpful. And I got shamed. Um, I think
[00:58:18]Adam Terry: I saw that thread ,
[00:58:19]Kellan Finney: but hey, shout
[00:58:20]Bryan Fields: out to everyone who, who took that advice and shout out to everyone who didn’t take that advice, and certainly wishes they did because it’s hard.
[00:58:26] It’s hard. So, Adam, before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, if you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation, what would it be?
[00:58:42]Adam Terry: That was a good question. And can you cut out all the gaps? Baseball, I think, uh,
[00:58:48]Bryan Fields: take your time.
[00:58:50]Adam Terry: If I could summarize into like, one lesson learned. Yeah.
[00:58:54]Kellan Finney: Doesn’t even, doesn’t even have to be cannabis can just be a life lesson too. ,
[00:58:57]Adam Terry: I mean, pick people you wanna work with. [00:59:00] Like is you’re, if you’re gonna spend your time, especially if you’re an entrepreneur out there and you’re thinking of starting a business and you’re picking, you know, your co-founders, your first team members cant Trip is a wonderful team full of people that are, you know, I always think to myself, these, these other people who are on my team, these are the people who care about cant trip in the world the absolute most.
[00:59:19] And if you, someone, anyone’s on your team, you know, at the, at least at the executive or founding level, that is not all in with what you’re doing, you know, it’s gonna be painful. Um, so, you know, pick your partners carefully. Pick your, uh, you know, the people, uh, who work for you carefully. People still drive everything.
[00:59:37] Everything is soft skills. At the end of the day, you can be technically inclined to the ends of the earth and you will get nowhere in your career if you can’t work with people. Um, and so ultimately, you know, develop your soft skills, develop your leadership skills, and, you know, pick who you wanna work with because you’re gonna spend 40 hours plus a week doing this.
[00:59:56] So you may as well like what you’re doing and who you’re working with. [01:00:00] Well said.
[01:00:01]Bryan Fields: All right, prediction time, Adam. At the BENGA conference bore, Jordan said five to 10 years out, I think cannabis beverages will represent 50% of the industry. Adam, what needs to change for us to get to beverages being 50% of the cannabis
[01:00:19]Adam Terry: industry?
[01:00:19] Thank you for framing it that way because like whether or not think that’s gonna happen and how it would, what we would have to do to get there. Two completely different things. Completely. Like I want to know what bores knows that I don’t because probably a lot, probably a lot if we’re gonna be honest.
[01:00:35] Yeah, that is true. Okay. Like I meant about a couple specific things. Bores Jordan is a smart guy who knows a lot of things. Uh uh, you know, purely is I’m organization and they’ve been very successful in a lot of things they’ve done. What I wanna know that I think Border of Jordan must know is how the FDA is gonna treat hack based, uh, cannabis.
[01:00:52] Like it’s just what we talked about in Minnesota. But like I said, there are people who have been selling builtin I THC products in the United States since [01:01:00] 2018 under the Farm Bill that are derived from hack. They’re mostly operating under the radar because they don’t wanna get slapped down by the fda.
[01:01:06] They mostly, the one successful ones are not making specific claims about efficacy. But if you could centralize and distribute cannabis beverages, all of which are less than 0.3%, I can’t think of, you’d have to have a very, very concentrate beverage. You maybe like the small shots, if you do like a hundred milligrams of thc, even then you might be less than 0.3%.
[01:01:26] I’d have to do the math about how small your shot can get and how concentrated if you could do that. I definitely see, uh, cannabis beverages, this being, you know, 50 plus percent of the market because you’ll be able to get ’em everywhere. You know, imagine if Target picks this up. Imagine if Walmart pick this up, Whole Foods, those places will never carry like raw flour, uh, in there.
[01:01:46] Like you’re never gonna go to Whole Foods to the bulk section. You just see cannabis that you can pick out, which would be super food.
[01:01:52]Bryan Fields: It’s a super food next to Kale. .
[01:01:54]Adam Terry: Yeah, next to Kale. Uh, and they’ve dried out some specifically for you to eat. Um, the, [01:02:00] uh, if you could see, like, but I think that’s very possible for beverages.
[01:02:04] And I think if lawmakers are smart and if we do this in the most logical way possible, you would allow that and you would allow largely edibles to be out there to, you probably, I think, put those behind the counter or put ’em in some sort of glass case. But I think, uh, uh, you know, they’re not more dangerous than alcohol, which is out on shelves all the time anyway.
[01:02:24] Right. And we have ways of restricting that they’re possibly safer than alcohol. And frankly, these low dose beverages, they can do volume. And there’s plenty of players out there that know how to centralize and distribute beverages nationally. So this is entirely possible. And if basically we build on what Minnesota has boldly as a state codified in their own state laws and start to open up other states doing the same thing, beverages should very quickly be, you know, $10 billion.
[01:02:56] They could be 40 billion in a couple years and be competing with the rest of the industry. [01:03:00] So if he has some inside Intel, Boris, reach out to me. I’m on Twitter, I’m very available. , I’m sure somebody you know, has my email address. I know that we’re only two degrees away from each other cause it’s not a big industry.
[01:03:13] Uh, let me know. We can do a deal. Purely launched endless coast. I, I’m Foley until this moment. I had forgotten they existed. , even though they’re in my own state, they seem to be doing okay, but they’re also, uh, anyway, my point being, um, let’s work together. Let’s find a way to do this. You know, there’s a lot of lobbying out there and I think that, you know, my, my view on the biggest failures of cannabis legalization have been twofold.
[01:03:37] It’s been largely, we didn’t really get the kind of cannabis legalization that like the heaviest traditional consumers want. They’re not getting the quality that they want a product. Uh, and honestly, shareholders are not really winning in cannabis right now. I mean, if ask anybody who bought cannabis between 2017 and 2020, you know how their portfolios are doing and they’re, you know, they’re all gonna say, I’m long [01:04:00] cannabis, 10, 20, 30 years, maybe that that’s helpful.
[01:04:03] But I don’t, A lot of these guys, I’m pretty sure retired before then, they’re gonna be taking hits on these long plays. I’m long cannabis as well, don’t get me wrong. But if I bought an MSOs in 2018 and still was holding onto it, I’d be in a pretty, pretty sore spot. Shout out, uh, to Rick. But the, uh, at the end of the day, the, like, this is possible.
[01:04:25] We just have to do it right. And if we, I mean, like, look at, I said this on Twitter, Look at New York. If you just allowed Bodega Guys to sell bodega, we, you’d probably solve your social equity problem. And no one’s gonna die as a result of it. It’s happening in New York anyway, why don’t we just legalize that.
[01:04:40] Cord has been saying that they’re gonna put on dispensers by the end of this year. And you know, Rosa Lux and B is out there on Twitter tracking. It take like minute by minute and it just doesn’t seem like it’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. I really don’t think it’s gonna happen. I, you know, uh, and even if it does, you’re talking like one or two stores as you suggested for a photo op and like, what [01:05:00] does that do for anybody except a politician?
[01:05:02] We should just like open up like New York State and let people sell weed out of bda away from hemp farms. They, they are doing that. They’re doing anyway. So what is the difference is like, and they’re not getting arrested for it. So like why is anybody showing up to Attain or any other dispensary in New York if they can get it cheaper and more conveniently from the guy that they’re buying their coffee and bagel from in the morning.
[01:05:22] I mean, it’s just , it’s like absurd to me. And no, you know what? People are doing it in New York basically without any consequence. And I haven’t heard a single story of somebody dying from marijuana use in, at a New York, uh, New York City. It can be done, it should be done. And. Honestly, I think we should probably just move to that system, find a way to, you know, tax and regulate that and we would survive, absolutely survive it just like there, the level of regulation we compromised with the rest of the world, like the rest of the country on, in order to get marijuana legalized in the first place has been one of the biggest hindrances to actually succeeding in this industry.
[01:05:57] And, uh, you know, [01:06:00] that that’s my biggest failures of the cannabis are like actual value for people out of cannabis. You know, it shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t have to have, I’m sorry. It like creates what something for you guys to, to push to people this playbook. It shouldn’t have to exist. You should be able to just go grow weed and sell it.
[01:06:15] And yet we have to go through this whole rig roll and then pat ourselves on the back for being so cool because we could put the right amount of cameras in our dispensaries so that people could be on camera and then still not be able to use a credit card of those dispensaries. Drives me nuts. Drives me absolutely nuts.
[01:06:30] Anybody. Right. Ran over. I, I
[01:06:32]Bryan Fields: just wanna let you know, Adam, that most people use our platform to pitch mass audience about building brand awareness. You took this opportunity to go singularly focus on boar Jordan, the chairman of Pure Leaf, which I, I commend you, right? Like, I have not got confirmation that he listens to this podcast, but I’ll make sure to take off his friends here.
[01:06:48] So a big shout out to you on that one. Kelly, do you want to take a shot at how cannabis beverages would become 50% of the market? I think
[01:06:56]Kellan Finney: I agree a lot with what Adam said in terms of accessibility. I [01:07:00] think another thing that could be a game changer, which scientifically speaking, I think Brian, we’ve got in this conversation, and I don’t know if the science is there to support it, but if some miracle happens and someone’s able to produce a cannabis beverage that creates similar experience as alcohol does in terms of a social experience and getting, like, releasing more endorphins, getting you more amped up.
[01:07:31] encouraging ex or introverts to go have more conversations like alcohol does. Then I could see cannabis beverages growing very quickly under those conditions. But those are the only conditions I see it occurring.
[01:07:47]Adam Terry: So you want cannabis beverages to just be alcohol . That’s exactly what I said,
[01:07:54]Kellan Finney: so, ok. Its so awesome.
[01:07:56] All I was like, invent it. It’s
[01:07:58]Bryan Fields: called alcohol. OK [01:08:00] guys. Oh, okay guys.
[01:08:01]Adam Terry: Let’s
[01:08:03]Kellan Finney: what? Alcohol
[01:08:03]Adam Terry: Without the consequences. That’s exactly what its,
[01:08:07]Bryan Fields: So let’s, let’s take a step back and let’s think about this, right? If Boris Jordan’s making this statement at the conference, there’s probably a reason behind it. I can’t imagine he’s just shooting from.
[01:08:15] I mean, granted, I had no idea that they had a beverage. And based on what you said, Adam , they are not doing so well. So I’m sure that he’s aware of that. But I think at the end of the day, what is necessary in order to get it to 50% is to have it outside of traditional channels like, excuse me, outside of dispensary channels, more into the traditional channels, exactly like you said.
[01:08:32] And how that happens Is a Budweiser a a mosin in order of these big conglomerates to go to the government and say, We are going to produce cannabis beverages. We’d like them sold a traditional retail like everyone else. Here’s our money. Make this happen. And then when that happens and when it’s sold alongside alcohol in supermarkets, it will absolutely explode.
[01:08:54] Because at the end of the day, you’re right, there are differences in the consumer behavior. But at the end of the day, when you go to a [01:09:00] backyard barbecue, most people don’t want to take an edible. They want to have something in their hand from the social standpoint. So the ability to have a cannabis beverage that they can buy the supermarket next to their high noons, excuse me, they can’t buy it at a, at a liquor store.
[01:09:11] Excuse me. They can’t buy high noons at a supermarket. They’d buy at a liquor store. But next to a traditional Cores light or Bud Light will allow the unlocking of that mass consumer that everyone is seeking in order to get to that, that type of number. Yeah,
[01:09:23]Adam Terry: there’s plenty of supermarkets across this country where you can buy high noon right there.
[01:09:26] Cause like New York thing, That’s a New York thing. It’s, it’s a lot of like a blue liberal state thing where they don’t allow Yeah, yeah. You to be, to be honest.
[01:09:36]Bryan Fields: Well, all the mag guys are gonna come from me
[01:09:37]Adam Terry: now. Ah, yeah. Well, uh, the, uh, honestly, I think, I think you’re right about that and the, you know, it’s just, Yeah, it around the address.
[01:09:47] Endless coast, by the way. I don’t know how well they’re doing. I want, I forgot about them, but they’re out there somewhere. They’re out. I believe, I believe in purely if I’m gonna state that for the record, like if, if, if PepsiCo can literally go to the government and pay them a certain amount of money, get this done, that’s actually [01:10:00] kind of devastating for our democracy.
[01:10:01] That’s how this works. That’s, that’s how everything works. I, I honestly hope is not quite that simple. I think probably not. There’s certainly a lot of money involved, but I think there’s also a lot of rigor role involved. Uh, but yeah. PepsiCo wants to partner on this. Uh, Please. Pepsi reach out. Yeah. Is that broaden off of an audience?
[01:10:15] I wanna, that I respect? I I Do you wanna stay for the record? Any beverage company who’s not in cannabis wants to reach out and talk to me. You can absolutely, uh, find me. I’m very, very available on Twitter, Very available through a lot of channels. I’m very easy to get in touch with. So, yeah. PepsiCo, please give me call.
[01:10:30] I’m sorry. Coca-Cola please actually do that.
[01:10:32]Kellan Finney: I know what’s sexy is how much it costs. Cold. Cold to make one can of CocaCola sense. It is. Like, I was
[01:10:38]Adam Terry: like, what? Yes. We haven’t even talked about liquid death on this call. Oh yeah. Million dollar valuation. We’ll have to hold that for another
[01:10:46]Bryan Fields: one. So Adam, for our listeners, they wanna get in touch.
[01:10:48] They wanna buy can trip. Where can they find you?
[01:10:50]Adam Terry: Uh, you can go to our website, Cant trip seltzer.com. Follow us on can, uh, on Instagram at Cant Trip Seltzer. Uh, I’m pretty available on Twitter as well. My [01:11:00] Twitter name is hard to pronounce cuz I’ve reversed the first letter of my last name and the first letter of my first name.
[01:11:04] So it’s Ti Adam Airy. Uh, but just Google. Adam Terry, Uh, I’m very, very visible. I’m on LinkedIn, uh, I’m on Signal if you have, uh, sketchy stuff that you wanna text me about, uh, . Yeah, and we have a contact form on the website, so reach out and uh, if I like you enough, I’ll give you my personal email address.
[01:11:22] Awesome. Thanks for taking the time. This was fun Adam. Thanks guys.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Hillary Peckham, COO of Etain Health, to discuss:
Cannabis in New York
The Future of the Medical market
Partnership with Riv Capital
About Hillary Peckham:Hillary Peckham is Chief Operations Officer of Etain, overseeing production, formulation and extraction, as well as dispensary operations and patient education. Recognized as one of New York State’s “30 Under 30” business talents in 2016, Hillary has managed the rapid roll-out of Etain’s successful manufacturing and dispensing operations throughout the state.
About Etain Health: Women-owned and quality-obsessed, Etain crafts medical cannabis products that make a difference.
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys? Welcome back, Episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields. I’m with me, as always, is Ke Finn. This week we’ve got a very special guest, Hillary Peckham, c o o v team. Hell, Hillary. Thanks for taking the time. How you doing
[00:00:14]Hillary Peckham: today? I’m doing great. Thank you for having
[00:00:16]Bryan Fields: me. I’m excited to dive in. Ke, how are you
[00:00:18]Kellan Finney: doing?
[00:00:19] I’m doing really good, Brian. I’m excited to talk to Hillary, learn a little bit more about the New York Cannabis market. And how are you doing,
[00:00:27]Bryan Fields: Brian? I’m doing well. I’m excited to talk to Hillary and talk about New York. So, Hillary, just for the record, uh, your location please.
[00:00:36]Hillary Peckham: So, I, I, our, our offices are in Westchester County, but we have four dispensaries and retail locations throughout the state of New York.
[00:00:43] There it is, Kyle,
[00:00:44]Bryan Fields: and let the record state another New Yorker for us. . So Hillary, for our listeners that are un right, you can give a little background about your.
[00:00:52]Hillary Peckham: Yep. So I’m the Chief Operating Officer of Etan llc. I’m also one of the founders, so my mother, my sister and I, uh, [00:01:00] started entering the cannabis industry in 2014 when New York State first passed the Compassionate Care Act.
[00:01:07] And we started looking at what the opportunities were, and we were really compelled to enter the medical cannabis industry in New York because it’s our home, but also because we had firsthand experience of how. Palliative and end of life care can be mismanaged. And then for myself, how pain can be mismanaged and wanted to be able to provide a better quality of life to patients, especially local ones that are, um, in our communities.
[00:01:33] And so we were awarded and. A license, one of five licenses in the state in 2015. Um, and we’ve opened our stores about six months after that. And we’ve been, um, part of the medical cannabis industry here in New York for, um, you know, seven years. And we have a vertically integrated operation, um, which I oversee.
[00:01:55] So we cultivate, we manufacture, and we retail and distribute [00:02:00] all of our products throughout the. I love it.
[00:02:02]Bryan Fields: I’m excited to dive into all those specifics, but I guess I gotta stay with the first question. Earlier on, I read a, a story that said you had a little hesitation about joining up and kind of entering the space.
[00:02:11] Can you kind of share a little bit about that
[00:02:13]Hillary Peckham: story? Well, that’s twofold, right? Because, you know, not only was it entering the cannabis industry, which really was not something that was in my purview. Um, I had studied piano in college. My sister studied ceramics. Um, and I, this was not something that we really participated in.
[00:02:31] Like that. Um, and it was until I learned about all these anecdotal stories of people having sort of life changing outcomes from using cannabis that I got on board, but it’s also a family business, right? So that comes with its own challenges. So I was like, do I really wanna go into business with my mom?
[00:02:46] And I’m so glad that I did. Um, For all, all of the reasons, uh, beyond the family part, I really enjoy watching and working with my mom, but, uh, the opportunity to provide care and compassion to people in New [00:03:00] York has been sort of unparalleled for me. Was there
[00:03:03]Kellan Finney: like a, a single moment once you got the ball rolling that you were like, you know, all of my worries were for nothing.
[00:03:09] Was there like a moment that you could remember?
[00:03:12]Hillary Peckham: Um, you know, my mom and I had kinda spoken about doing this and she. Was a little non-com committal, but I could tell she really wanted to do it. And finally I said like, Listen, if if we’re gonna do. We’re gonna do this to win. And she said, Okay. And so then , we jumped in and it was really wonderful.
[00:03:34] After that, uh, we immediately met, uh, the organization, Women Grow, which had just launched its first, uh, meeting in New York, which we attended. And, uh, found this amazing group of women who really sort. Uh, took me in and my mom and helped us network and, and get the expertise we needed. So it was like immediately we found, uh, our group of people and we were able to continue as soon as we [00:04:00] were solidly committing
[00:04:03]Bryan Fields: Working with family definitely has this inner working some challenges, right? Distributions of responsibilities, kind of the, the, the relationship dynamic of you and your sister and your mom. Those are all challenges. So when the three of you are sitting around deciding you’re gonna do this, how, how does the first step work?
[00:04:16] Is it we’re gonna separate responsibilities, we’re gonna have conversations, you know, take us through that
[00:04:20]Hillary Peckham: insight. So it’s actually, you know, uh, I’ll say worse as a joke, but worse than that. But , my husband works for us and my brother-in-law, my cousin and my, uh, my twin brother as well. So we have a lot of family, uh, in the company.
[00:04:37] So I think sort of quickly we realized. We would need to delegate and give people specific roles so that we weren’t up in each other’s business, which obviously happens anyway cuz we all are a close family. But my sister’s in charge of cultivation. My, uh, brother-in-law in charge of production and he’s an engineer.
[00:04:55] So all the manufacturing and automation that goes into our products, uh, [00:05:00] my. Husband is the cio, so he’s in charge of all the information and technology data, um, collection. I’m in charge of operations, uh, just cuz I’m very bossy. And then my mom is the CEO, . Um, and, uh, we all answered to her. Uh, and then, um, we’ve just created, you know, Structure.
[00:05:18] I think the value of having family is you have a group that’s extremely committed, and I think all of us were aligned in the goal of providing high quality products that we’re changing people’s lives like before anything else. And so we have been able to be very nimble and extremely lean because all of us are willing to take on more tasks than just the responsibility we.
[00:05:40] Would’ve been assigned. So my sister works on marketing and branding, so does my husband. Um, you know, different product development and things like that we do with my brother-in-law. So it’s, um, very dynamic, but I think a huge asset and part of the reason why Etan has been successful for so long in the cannabis industry.
[00:05:57] How
[00:05:57]Kellan Finney: do you guys, uh, separate, uh, shop talk from [00:06:00] like personal talk when you’re having family dinner?
[00:06:02]Hillary Peckham: I don’t think you do. Yeah. . I think that’s the answer. Uh, so. You know, we have been pretty good. It got a little hard in, in Covid where I remember, you know, there was just a weekend where I was like, I don’t want anything to do with any of you , but, um, um, uh, of finding other things to do or like take family trips and, and, and find other, other things to talk about.
[00:06:25] Um, I have a one year old and my sister has, uh, a four year old, and so that’s been really fun. But otherwise, you know, it’s, it’s been very much just work oriented.
[00:06:34]Bryan Fields: Yeah, real hard line of separation between, uh, family and work when they’re pretty blurred. So, uh, speak, speaking on cannabis, was there something from a medical benefit that earlier on you guys connected with as a family that led you to wanting to be
[00:06:47]Hillary Peckham: involved here?
[00:06:48] So my grandmother was diagnosed with als and that is a terminal illness, and she was put on 2225 different medications and all of those have [00:07:00] interactions with each other that can be worse than the disease itself. And a doctor had actually recommended that we try to find cannabis and at that point there wasn’t a legal mechanism to do so.
[00:07:10] So we weren’t able to do that for my grandmother. But she had, um, well my mother, who was her caretaker at the time, Started researching and was, I like, I think this is a great opportunity. And then for me, I had had a hip surgery that failed and so I actually lost the use of my right leg for two years.
[00:07:28] And so I had to relearn how to walk. Um, and I personally saw how pain is mismanaged. So I was in college at the time and the only thing that I could be given was really Adderall and Percocet to try and get through my day, which is. Not providing me quality of life. And so I became very like anti pain medication.
[00:07:46] Um, and seeing the opportunities that this provided primarily, like long term pain patients for relief, um, just sleeping at night and those kind of things was something that really captured my attention. And so, um, we went into it [00:08:00] having had these personal experiences and then we have another family business.
[00:08:04] So literally all we. Talk about is family business is one or the other. And, uh, that has a lot of industrial property. And originally we thought it could be sort of an alignment through the, um, Through the two companies, but it was, uh, because of cannabis laws and banking and everything, we had to fully segregate them.
[00:08:24] But, uh, we thought we could use the underutilized property that we owned and we could, uh, operate a cannabis business. Um, it very quickly diverge from there, but, uh, with those synergies, that’s sort of how we, we set off on our path.
[00:08:41]Kellan Finney: So, I mean, you said that you originally, when you were speaking with the doctor, they, they told you to kind of go seek out cannabis, but there wasn’t any available. What was that search like? Once the doctor was like, Hey, there might be this plant that could help, and you’re like, Well, where do I get it?
[00:08:56]Hillary Peckham: So I think my mom asked my littlest [00:09:00] brother for help , and, um, I, it’s really not something that has been, uh, part of my family’s culture.
[00:09:07] So we were no help to my mother. Um, and, uh, we were kind of stuck. I think Connecticut had a medical program at that point that had just gotten up and running, but my grandmother was very concerned. The federal illegality and things like that. And, uh, eventually, like when the opportunity was like, we could do this for you, she, um, she declined because she wasn’t, uh, uh, willing to try something new, which I understood at that point.
[00:09:34] She was trying all sorts of different medications. Yeah.
[00:09:38]Bryan Fields: Was there doubt that you’d win the license?
[00:09:41]Hillary Peckham: So I think that, There was doubt from everybody else, but I was very sure that we were a good candidate throughout it, which now I’m looking back and I’m like, I was very, um, bullish on that. There were, as you should be.
[00:09:55] Yeah. Um, there were, I think 42 [00:10:00] applications. Uh, we were the only family owned and the only women owned. Applicant and we really tried to prioritize communities that we know, um, and to have a geographic diversity within our dispensary locations. I thought we had a really good team, um, and we weren’t able to execute once we got the license.
[00:10:19] So I, I knew that we would be able to. To do that. And so I didn’t have any doubts, but definitely there were a lot of people who, uh, especially I looked very young, so I looked like at that point I was, you know, forever ago I looked like I was 12. So a lot of people just really questioning, uh, why I was doing this or how we would, could possibly get a license, but it worked out.
[00:10:41]Kellan Finney: So the day you guys got the license, what was that? Walk us through those feelings. Was it like a celebration? Was it like, Hey, let’s get to work? How did that, uh, transpire?
[00:10:49]Hillary Peckham: So one of the people who definitely didn’t think we were gonna get a license was my dad . Um, and so I was actually at their house when uh, we were awarded the license and um, [00:11:00] we didn’t have corporate offices or anything cuz it was just me, my mom, my sister.
[00:11:04] Uh, and like two other people, and we would just work out of my, uh, parents’ house. And so that was our corporate address. And so all these news trucks, uh, rolled up, uh, thinking that, uh, their house was where we were gonna be growing, all of the cannabis. And we live in like a pretty affluent and conservative neighborhood in Westchester.
[00:11:27] Uh, so that was not the messaging that we had really wanted. . I also had been waiting for weeks for this, uh, announcement to come out. So was not particularly well groomed or shout
[00:11:43] out. We actually were hiding, like under the windows, um, uh, so the news trucks wouldn’t see us, and our neighbor came over and told us, told them that we weren’t home and sent them off. So that was sort of how , how we kicked off the morning and then, and then we had [00:12:00] a, a family dinner and celebration that evening.
[00:12:02] Yeah.
[00:12:03]Bryan Fields: And then my understanding of you is you’re an action oriented person, so I’m sure everyone got a list of responsibilities needed to execute over the upcoming.
[00:12:11]Hillary Peckham: For that afternoon, we, we actually started construction on our manufacturing facility. That was a, We kicked it off. Yeah.
[00:12:20]Bryan Fields: So take us through like how that is, So you have some assumptions going in.
[00:12:23] You’re thinking one thing, you get the license and now you start. The thing is, what’s a challenge that you didn’t foresee happening that kind of took you along the way that looking back you’re like, ah, that definitely was a lot harder than I thought it going in.
[00:12:35]Hillary Peckham: So I, I think. The application was detailed, so detailed that you had to basically build a business before it existed, and that gave a lot of benefit because you knew exactly what to do.
[00:12:48] But it’s a whole different reality when you’re under a very tight timeline. So we were given by law 180 days to get fully operational, which meant growing all your plants. At that point, only [00:13:00] extracts were allowed. So you had to extract it. You had to create your products under standards that did not exist in the industry.
[00:13:07] So there were pharmaceutical standards, testing methods that were being created, like as you were getting up and running. And you also had to be working on your retail locations, which meant signing leases, um, renovating. All the security requirements up and running and, and getting those going. So it was a huge undertaking.
[00:13:25] Um, and the, the time was really the, the main hurdle. And there’s a huge difference between putting it on paper and then actually doing it. And so I think what we found, especially back then was a lot of people claimed they had expertise that was not, And so we just had to figure out how to do it on our own.
[00:13:44] And I don’t think that much has changed today in the industry, unfortunately. And so we, we had a lot of, um, sort of missteps figuring it out on our own or trusting people, um, especially back then when there weren’t references or anything like that. [00:14:00] Um, but we, we all figured it out. I, I definitely was like sleeping at our manufacturing facility , uh, overnight because we were only getting a few hours of sleep towards the end of the timeframe there.
[00:14:11] But it was, uh, you know, looking back on it, I look back on that time very fondly because it was, you know, a very core group of people. Um, that many of them are still with us today. It was very family oriented and we were all just figuring it out together as a team and then meeting that goal of getting operational was really wonderful to do together with them.
[00:14:31] Yeah, I
[00:14:31]Kellan Finney: mean, it’s the typical kind of startup story where you’re just working as hard as you can and putting as much time in as will allow and, uh, just, just to be successful or just have the opportunity. So what was, uh, kind of some of the conversations that happened internally when New York passed rec?
[00:14:49] Uh, sales or the ability for rec sales, did you guys, was it immediate, Hey, we’re definitely gonna go jump in the adult use market and kind of pit and like play in both realms, or what was that dialogue internally with [00:15:00] your family? So
[00:15:01]Hillary Peckham: I think that when we first got the license, we just intended to stay medical because that was really our focus.
[00:15:07] But many years passed between the program opened and adult use. And then, uh, there were many attempts at the adult use legislation before it actually passed. So we had a long time to kind of adapt what was gonna happen in New York. I think very quickly it was apparent to us that there’s no way to. Stay in business if you are only a medical provider, particularly in New York, where the medical program has sort of failed to thrive.
[00:15:35] So it’s too small to support the 10 companies that exist today, much less of it shrinks. When adult use comes online, it’s gonna get very difficult to support in the future. So very quickly we, we recognized we needed to get on board with this and how we were gonna adapt our business strategy to accommodate it.
[00:15:53] And so we. We’ve always been very supportive. And additionally, the way that I have always seen the Etan [00:16:00] brand is more of like a health and wellness product, um, than a pharmaceutical. And I think the family a agreed with me with that and that, uh, entering the adult use industry allows greater access to people who are using cannabis.
[00:16:15] Betterment of their lives. And I think that our products are really, um, complimentary to that kind of, uh, view of cannabis where, you know, maybe it’s a night’s sleep, maybe it’s a sore ankle, um, maybe it’s just ongoing knee pain or something like that. Our products have a purpose that bring, uh, a better quality of life.
[00:16:33] So adult, the adult use industry would just expand our reach through that. So we’ve always been very supportive of it.
[00:16:39]Bryan Fields: What would you like to see the medical program do
[00:16:41]Hillary Peckham: differently? So I, you know, unfortunately, I think it’s a little too late. Right. Um, I think that, uh, with adult use being so imminent, um, and they’re gonna, gonna open the program with so many more dispensaries for adult use than they’ve allowed in the medical program.
[00:16:59] I, I worry [00:17:00] about the viability in the future, like at all. Uh, and I think there’s some great qualities of the medical program in New York. The quality of products really is unparalleled and they’re very trustworthy. Um, but, uh, I, I don’t know that that will last, uh, into the future. Um, I’d like to see, you know, more product categories being allowed.
[00:17:18] We were never allowed food products and those kinds of, Things, uh, but we also were able to make adaptations to that. So we made a water soluble powder that you can cook with, so that allowed our patients to be able to make their own products through that. Um, but I, I’m not sure, you know, at this point, I think, uh, really bringing greater awareness to the fact that the medical program exists, that, uh, for people who are looking at this as, um, Uh, medical treatment, the program is exceptional.
[00:17:50] You get access to pharmacists and doctors who can help you and guide you holistically, both with traditional pharmaceutical medication and cannabis to give, uh, and [00:18:00] treat your whatever you’re sort of aing from. Um, but I’m not sure that there’s much to do at this point. I think what’s really gonna be imperative to making sure that the medical program lasts is allowing medical products to be sold out of all dispensaries, which includes the new ones coming online for adult use, um, and allowing the current operators early entry into the adult use program to make sure that, um, We have enough revenue to sustain both sort of segments of the business.
[00:18:34]Bryan Fields: I’m glad you brought up the powder. Uh, I am a medical patient and I am a frequent powder user, Froman l So I’m excited to ask you this question. What is the go to combination or food mechanism for the powder?
[00:18:48]Hillary Peckham: Oh, you know, it’s actually probably not what you think it is. It’s just tea . A lot of people really like to mix it in tea or coffee.
[00:18:54] So, um, my sister though, if you go and check out our Instagram, she has a lot of different baking recipes. [00:19:00] She’s an amazing cook. Um, I’m hopeless, so she does all of the content there, . So I, people have gotten extremely creative. She does like a whipped cream and things like that, that are really amazing. But it makes us so easily an illiquid that for most of our patients who are, um, over 40, over 50, uh, it’s very, very familiar to them to use it that way.
[00:19:23] Is it your favorite product? Uh, the powder, the lozenges are really, really tasty. So, um, the lozenges,
[00:19:32]Bryan Fields: the lozenger are tasty. Uh, I put the powder in my ice cream. Uh, I’d highly recommend that because it is delicious. My wife calls it my smiling ice cream because after it, I’m certainly smiling.
[00:19:42]Hillary Peckham: Excellent. Um, our, uh, we launched a new vaporizer, the Motif Pen, and that is our most popular product.
[00:19:49] I think. Uh, we really tried to hone in on the temperatures, um, and ease of use of the device, and so that’s really taken off and that’s our best seller
[00:19:57]Bryan Fields: by far. When New York Con [00:20:00] consumers are walking into a dispensary for the first time, is there certain products you think are a good fit for our first time or who’s kind of getting their feet wet versus more that are more experienced products?
[00:20:09] Do you have any recommendations for them?
[00:20:11]Hillary Peckham: So I think when we created sort of our whole scope, And family of products. We tried to keep in mind that there’s gonna be a range of ex experiences that patients have had when they walk in the in the door. So our products are highly potent. So if you were to buy a tincture, it’s dosed by a drop, not by like a huge milliliter or anything like that.
[00:20:31] So we’re a easily able to titrate our products sort of up and down. I would recommend something like a powder, um, or a tincture where you can easily dose. it As opposed to, say, a capsule where there’s just a fixed dose per capsule. Um, but what we are also able to target with our products is sort of fast and long term relief.
[00:20:52] So a vaporizer would give you very quick, rapid onset relief, and a capsule would give you a much more delayed onset, but a [00:21:00] longer lasting. Um, experience. And so, uh, what we do with the pharmacist and the doctors is we create a program that gives you the most opportunity to have success throughout your day, depending on also your experience.
[00:21:15] So the more you use cannabis, the more you’re going to be able to take a higher dose or need a higher dose.
[00:21:21]Kellan Finney: When you guys, uh, bring a new product to market, is it, uh, kind of like launch it in every store and see how it does, or do you guys use one retail location as kind of like your beta testing, uh, platform to see how those products do?
[00:21:33]Hillary Peckham: So we launch it in all of our stores. There’s a huge threshold for getting a new product to market. So we, um, We generally launch it everywhere. Right now what we are doing is launching a new strain cuz flowers allow. Um, so we’re launching a new strain every month. What is it? We also just launch, it’s this month strain.
[00:21:52] You know, uh, you caught me off guard here, . Um, but we’ve been doing one or two every month usually. Um, [00:22:00] uh, and we have four approved ratios of THC and cbd, which is how this is, is dosed. So we do sort of all of those and then we just launch pre-rolls. Um, and, uh, I think we’re gonna have a few new developments.
[00:22:14] We’re looking into gummies and those kind of things over the next year, uh, for launching. But our, our markets in each of the dispensary locations are very different. Um, and it’s hard to predict how they’ll react. So we kind of just, uh, launch in all four stores and then see where we need to allocate more product moving forward, where things are more popular.
[00:22:35] I
[00:22:35]Bryan Fields: wanna turn to the inner workings of the, the business for a vertical integrated company is extremely challenging. You’re managing some words up to six different businesses simultaneously. So how does, like something like that go on and can you take us kind of the inner workings on some of the challenges of, of overseeing an opportunity like that?
[00:22:53]Hillary Peckham: So I think right now the, the biggest challenge is the changes that are upcoming and, and the, and the unknown. Um, [00:23:00] but really the, the main focus is on regulatory compliance. And so that really dictates every, everything that we do. And so you have to make sure that not only are you following. the State regulation, but you’ve got like OSHA workplace safety recommendations.
[00:23:15] You’ve got the federal CGMP regulations for how to handle food products and pharmaceuticals. And so those really are, um, sort of the main core foundation of how, how we, um, How we function and it’s with sort of the mindset of compliance. Uh, but you have to learn everything. And, and then, um, now we’re getting big enough , uh, that it’s nice to have people who can just specialize in certain areas.
[00:23:39] Uh, but you’re gonna have to be able to oversee everything through, through to, to sail. Um, each segment of the business very much is its own. Sort of unit, uh, and requires a different mastery of expertise. And so that’s where it came in handy that we had those expertise sort of within my family, . Um, uh, [00:24:00] but uh, if you don’t have a compliance mindset, particularly in New York, but in the cannabis industry, I just don’t think you’ll be successful.
[00:24:09]Kellan Finney: Is there one section of the supply chain that is a little more, causes more headaches from a compliance perspective than other
[00:24:16]Hillary Peckham: section? I, I, No, I don’t, I don’t think so. They, they’re
[00:24:22]Kellan Finney: all equally headaches, ,
[00:24:25]Hillary Peckham: uh, they’re, they, they’re all very different. So they all present different challenges. Um, sort of at, at retail, you have no idea what you’re gonna get, like the people that walk in, in the store.
[00:24:34] Yeah. Um, we currently grow outta greenhouses so that. That changes, that environment changes seasonally, so you’re always facing sort of a different climate, which is gonna impact your plants a little differently. Um, and then, uh, production is very steady, uh, but we’re looking at adding new products and how to scale things up and so that’s sort of an efficiency jigsaw puzzle to put together.
[00:24:59]Bryan Fields: So, [00:25:00]
[00:25:01]Kellan Finney: I was gonna say it’s gotta be, uh, pretty simple with being vertically integrated. Not simple, maybe that’s the wrong word, but being vertically integrated provides the opportunity to optimize the flow of material, right. Instead of like having to manifest stuff within the, the track and trace software, you’re able to kind of just keep it all in house.
[00:25:20] Is that
[00:25:20]Hillary Peckham: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we’re able to stay very lean because particularly up in our, our facility, we’re able to. Our talent in multiple areas. So we can train them in all different product buildings also, like they, they assist in cultivation or we swap a lot of people. So we’re able to, um, utilize.
[00:25:41] The employees that we do have in a way that’s highly efficient. And then, um, having your own retail and being able to manage that too. We’re able to know exactly the order quantities that we need to build and, um, and manage the all in house. So there are definitely efficiencies that you see [00:26:00] in a vertically integrated company because the medical market’s so small.
[00:26:03] Um, you know, we’re not realizing the full capacity of that. It really comes at scale, but it definitely is an opportu.
[00:26:10]Kellan Finney: And it helps that you guys, your family and you’re sitting there talking, so reviews from consumers will make their way all the way back to the grower. And so there’s that whole kind of inner working dynamic from like a perfecting all these products and reviews and all that stuff feeding back into the,
[00:26:27]Hillary Peckham: into the system.
[00:26:28] Yeah. We take it very personally, but it’s also very direct to the people who are building all the products, so we know exactly what people are saying and how we should adapt.
[00:26:38]Bryan Fields: That’s always strong and I forget consumer feedback on what is working and more importantly, what needs to change. Because those reviews are really critical in helping you, you know, navigate that path forward, Especially the unknown west, but in
[00:26:48]Hillary Peckham: cannabis, absolutely.
[00:26:50] And so we’re able to take, you know, feedback that we get at the store and then directly use that in our manufacturing and cultivation processes and make changes to make sure that it’s what the [00:27:00] customer wants. And so, uh, that’s something that I think is really unique, um, and something we take very serious.
[00:27:06] Sometimes it’s just hard
[00:27:07]Kellan Finney: to hear from your
[00:27:07]Hillary Peckham: sibling. Well, if it’s from your sibling, pressure is taken very seriously.
[00:27:15]Bryan Fields: mom’s got a favorite daughter. Is that, is that what your angle right now?
[00:27:20]Hillary Peckham: Never.
[00:27:21]Bryan Fields: Oh. So let’s, let’s continue on the, the partnership with RIV Capital. Take us through that conversation. You know, how, when did that start and how long does something like that start from like a early conversation to, you know, signing p.
[00:27:34]Hillary Peckham: I think a, a big misconception is how much work goes into a deal like that. Um, I definitely didn’t know, and especially being a small scale, um, a very lean operator, the amount of bandwidth to to do that was, um, really intense for us. It also kind of dovetailed, I literally had my, my daughter as we kicked it off, but we, uh, saw the, um, adult use industry, uh, [00:28:00] coming.
[00:28:00] They had just. The M Mrta, uh, and we knew that in order to leverage the full capacity of our license and the opportunity that this license provided, we needed to find a partner. Additionally, New York is discussing a very high entry fee for our category of license into the adult use industry, um, and we couldn’t do both that huge fee and scale our business appropriately.
[00:28:26] Appropriately. So we knew we needed to take on, um, a capital partner. Um, debt is very expensive in the cannabis industry, so that wasn’t something that we were inclined towards. Uh, so we kicked off the process. Um, We started sort of looking at a financial advisory firm in a bank, um, around June of last year.
[00:28:49] We kicked off the process in, in September, October, um, and then we signed, uh, April 1st basically. Um, and so we went through multiple rounds of [00:29:00] trying to find the right part. Um, and we landed on RIV Capital and part of the opportunity there is they’re a very young company as well, and this is their first foray into a plant touching business and direct operations.
[00:29:15] And so we’re able to really, uh, use this as a partnership to expand the EAN brand. And hopefully get that to expand nationally together. And so for us, where we really, really care about the brand, the products, and the quality, uh, to be able to continue on past this deal and continue to sort of see our vision come to life, uh, was a huge opportunity and something that we’ve really valued that
[00:29:40]Bryan Fields: has to be a layered conversation of challenges and, and personal perspectives.
[00:29:44] So what made you feel comfortable saying that? These are the ones we, we wanna partner.
[00:29:51]Hillary Peckham: So I think that they really valued the Etan brand, what it stood for. I think they see a long term opportunity for it, sort of in their house of brands that I think [00:30:00] is the vision. And uh, you know, it just took a, a lot of time and a lot of conversations with, with each other to get there.
[00:30:07] Um, and it definitely was complicated, um, and a very long deal process. But it was one where, um, We knew this was the partner, uh, we knew we needed a partner, um, and that this would give us the biggest opportunity to continue forward with the, the what we had already built. And to expand on that,
[00:30:26]Bryan Fields: before that you started looking for partners.
[00:30:28] Were there other people who had approached you for a similar partnership prior, before you had started processing the the need for taking on additional
[00:30:36]Hillary Peckham: capital? So people offered to buy us out, you know, the day we got the license, , and we always said no, and we really were not looking to sell. Uh, it really became a function of necessity knowing that New York was discussing up to a 20 million licensing fee, uh, just to get into the adult use industry.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] I. And you know, that number, I think they’ve, they’ve walked away from it, but it’s taken, you know, almost two years for them to walk away from that number. So it, it really wasn’t something we needed to do until we had those kind of details and, um, So, uh, we really turned everybody away. Up until the point we were like, Okay, if we’re gonna do this, we’ll control it and have our own narrative to it.
[00:31:26]Bryan Fields: The 20 million is, is pretty steep when you’re looking at it. It’s uh, it’s a pretty bold number to be putting out there.
[00:31:32]Hillary Peckham: Yeah, it is very bold. . So, um, and it’s, and it’s one that, you know, especially in New York, we were the only women. Only the. Family owned, only small business. Um, we had up until recently, you know, 50 employees.
[00:31:46] Uh, whereas most of the other companies in New York are, um, all but, uh, pharma cans I think is still private, but the rest are, uh, public companies with a lot of capital, um, inability to fundraise very quickly, [00:32:00] which is just not an option, option if you’re, you’re private and family owned. And so, uh, it really would’ve just kicked us out of the industry altogether.
[00:32:08] Um, and then, As I mentioned, we just didn’t see long term viability as being a standalone medical operator, so we just sort of saw the writing on the wall that it would wind up with us going outta business, and so we needed to be proactive in our next steps.
[00:32:23]Bryan Fields: Yeah, it’s a smart pivot and for them to just assume, right, like capital is so easy to come by, especially here in cannabis.
[00:32:28] Like, uh, it’s a bold, it’s a bold number for sure, and one that we could probably have additional conversations for at a later point and see, you know, how was that the right number? Was there a different approach that they should have
[00:32:37]Hillary Peckham: taken? Yeah, so the, I mean, right now it’s still speculative, which, which did cause a little bit of heartache for us because we don’t know what that number is.
[00:32:46] Um, but it was up to 20 million. And so we knew that, uh, at a minimum it was probably gonna be something in the millions. Uh, and that would be taking away directly from our ability to also scale the business. And if we’re not able to, [00:33:00] Have product to sell in the adult youth industry either cuz we couldn’t afford the licensing fee or the equipment and, and employees to be able to build it.
[00:33:07] That wasn’t gonna put us in a position of strength. So, uh, we knew we couldn’t, uh, stay as is. They
[00:33:14]Kellan Finney: also don’t need to make it a limited license state if they’re gonna put the price tag at 20 million personally.
[00:33:20]Bryan Fields: That’s
[00:33:20]Hillary Peckham: interesting. You know, never, I never thought of it that way, but, you know, ,
[00:33:25]Kellan Finney: right? It’s like, it’s if, if, if the price of the ticket’s so expensive, then it’s gonna automatically eliminate a lot of people looking to buy a ticket, right?
[00:33:34]Hillary Peckham: Yep. And, and that was something that I, you know, I, I was pretty vocal about and yeah. Um, is, Is, uh, par, particularly if you’re looking for, uh, diversity at every level of the industry. Um, fees like that will limit who has access to, uh, being a business owner, um, at a vertical level. So what,
[00:33:54]Kellan Finney: you guys are a family owned business, right?
[00:33:56] And this topic, right, of raising capital. How did the family. [00:34:00] Kind of come to the conclusion to work with Rib, to go out and raise the capital. Was it y’all sat down at dinner and had a vote? Or how did that whole
[00:34:08]Hillary Peckham: kind of t Yout have, you know, workday and normal business hours like this? No. You know, um, it’s not all meals.
[00:34:17] Um, but we, uh, I mean it was very much. In a unified way. So, uh, we all were part of the process, uh, involved in, in the next steps, like what our priorities were, and everybody had a voice at the table as we, as we moved along.
[00:34:35]Bryan Fields: What is one factor statistic operating in the cannabis industry that would shock others to know?
[00:34:42]Hillary Peckham: I I think the dirty secret of the cannabis industry is no one’s making money. I, I think everyone thinks that there is so much money to be made, but when you factor in particularly 280E Just about nobody is making money in the cannabis industry. And so I think [00:35:00] people need to be very wary before they enter or they take on loans or leverage themselves in any way, um, for what the financials actually look like.
[00:35:09] And so I, I worry, uh, that people get caught up thinking it’s gonna be a great business. Um, and right now it is still very, very tough. And so, um, Uh, no one usually people outside the can industry never believe that. And then you get in it and, and everyone’s in the same boat. ,
[00:35:30]Bryan Fields: Yeah. Many, especially here in New York, just anticipate the New York market is just absolutely thriving and that the cannabis attorney as a whole is thriving.
[00:35:37] They see numbers on the media and just naturally assume, oh, everyone is just printing money. And couldn’t be really farther from the.
[00:35:45]Hillary Peckham: Yeah. And, and I worry particularly, um, you know, there’s a lot of promotion for the industry, but I think there’s a lot of unknowns. How many licenses, how many dispensaries there’s gonna be, what the viability of those are, like what the end goal is.
[00:35:57] Those, those kind of things haven’t really been, [00:36:00] uh, Put out there. And I think that, uh, without those kind of metrics, it’s gonna be hard to know if you had a dispensary license, if that’s really viable. And those are the hardest businesses to operate. So, um, and, and make any money with. And so I, I, I worry about people getting caught up in, in sort of the green rush here.
[00:36:21] Um, just like every other state, there being some pretty poor outcomes very quickly once people get their first two a e bill. So, do
[00:36:32]Bryan Fields: you have any feelings on the gray market in New York? What does that mean? The, let’s say the unlicensed dispensaries where the, the storefronts that are operating and presume themselves as like a, a regular storefront, but or not a licensed entity?
[00:36:48]Hillary Peckham: Well, I think the OCMs been pretty clear. People operating right now without a license are doing so illegally and it can limit their access into the adult use [00:37:00] industry. For us, it is frustrating because we have been a legal entity regulated, um, intensely for seven, eight years now. Um, and, uh, there’s a.
[00:37:15] Variety that’s available at those stores than what we’re able to produce in the medical setting. Um, and there’s a lot more of those stores open right now than there are medical stores, . Uh, so I think that as, as, uh, someone in, in the industry and being subjected to a completely different set of rules, it’s frustrating to watch.
[00:37:36] So I’m hoping that eventually there’s some enforcement procedure to.
[00:37:53] Industry and start selling before it’s, um, before it’s open. I mean,
[00:37:57]Bryan Fields: it’s a
[00:37:58]Kellan Finney: good sign that there is clearly [00:38:00] large demand,
[00:38:00]Hillary Peckham: right? I don’t think anyone ever questions.
[00:38:04]Kellan Finney: I was just trying to sugar cut it cause it is. Um, yeah. Yeah. It’s a really negative situation for someone that’s operating under the way you’re supposed to do it.
[00:38:12] And you see all these other entities just kind of cutting corners. No taxes, no license fees. They
[00:38:18]Bryan Fields: probably aren’t worried about
[00:38:19]Hillary Peckham: two aed. No, I’m sure they’re not. We’re having a great day and I, and I think that, Um, right now we’re waiting on regulations and what our next steps are. Also, without knowing our next steps as a business, it’s very hard to understand where we’re gonna go, um, and how, how we could eventually compete with these entities.
[00:38:39]Bryan Fields: When you started your journey in the cannabis space, what did you get? Right? And most importantly, what did you get wrong?
[00:38:47]Hillary Peckham: I think we’ve changed just about everything from where we started and where we are now. So I I think that, um, being very nimble is what we got. Right. And then, uh, I don’t see an issue with sort of getting [00:39:00] everything wrong as long as you’re willing to change it. So , I think we got everything wrong, but we’ve been able to adapt to make sure that we are, um, uh, making those changes very quickly and as the market demands them.
[00:39:14]Bryan Fields: 20 years from now, we will look back and say, That was barbaric. I can’t believe we did that in the cannabis industry. What
[00:39:20]Hillary Peckham: is that? Oh, lord. Well, I think that, uh, currently the, the regulations that we operate under are, uh, Ha have not made much progress from seven, eight years ago. Um, when our primary regulator was the Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement in, in New York State, um, and very much still treated as though we are sort of drug traffickers.
[00:39:50] Um, like it was in that, in mind that we are are dealing elit substance. And so if you look at the regulations that we have today, um, and [00:40:00] how sort of little. Moved on them over time. Um, I think it will be kind of silly once, especially once adult use opens, but we get 20 years out from now and we see, uh, all the opportunity that we have if you had expanded regulations.
[00:40:17] I, I also think people misplaced fear. Um, and uh, you know, you have all these illicit shops and things like that and there, uh, you’re not seeing. The direct link of cannabis to any of the, the concerns that people have in the communities of, you know, uh, intoxicated driving, um, child. Uh, adolescent access, those kind of things like, uh, be a huge concern right now.
[00:40:48] And so I think, you know, placing that on a regulated entity is, is very misplaced and just shows like a lack of education that I hope comes over time and, and helps adapt people’s opinions of cannabis. [00:41:00]
[00:41:01]Bryan Fields: Where we do predictions, we ask all of our guests, If you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass onto the next generation, what would it.
[00:41:10]Hillary Peckham: Oh my gosh. I think the main thing I’ve learned is how to, uh, Learn and promote others , uh, in a way and using that to, um, sort of better myself. And so I think that the biggest opportunities that I’ve seen and and growth is when I’ve allowed other people to do things, uh, and sort of given up control and really tried to.
[00:41:41] Just around myself with good people that I trust and make sure it’s people you trust, I think would be really important. But, uh, we’ve been able to accomplish so more, uh, so much more, uh, by allowing more people to kind of thrive and give them opportunities within this [00:42:00] company. Um, and that’s been both very rewarding and, and helpful for me to grow and learn as an employer and a business
[00:42:08]Bryan Fields: owner.
[00:42:10] All right. Prediction time. Hillary, it’s 2024. What is the biggest challenge over the last two years that new operators were not preparing for?
[00:42:25]Hillary Peckham: Wow. These are, These are fun questions.
[00:43:07]Bryan Fields: There we go. Sorry about that . No problem. Uh, would you like me to ask again and then we can slice them together? We’re good
[00:43:15]Kellan Finney: at quit recording when you pieced out and I was kind of talking too cause you were frozen. So sick. Sick, real. If you wanna just transition the question over then to you.
[00:43:25] And then Hillary was, I was like in the middle of it when you pieced out.
[00:43:28]Bryan Fields: So yeah, they’re doing some work in my house. They pulled the internet out. That’s sick. Uh, just , just your, just your classic, uh, variable. Kelly. Your answer. .
[00:43:39]Kellan Finney: Uh, I completely agree with Hillary. She kinda, she took the, took the thunder, but she’s completely right.
[00:43:45] I mean, you look at Michigan for instance. Uh, everyone built these businesses based on like current market. Values for certain product skews, right? And they have it in their spreadsheet and they went and raised money off of that. And like everything’s [00:44:00] predicated on that price point typically. And then they get into it 6, 8, 12 months and all of a sudden the price point drops significant over that time period.
[00:44:11] Like you don’t see this in any other industry in terms of the amount of price compression that occurs, Right. And how quickly it occurs too. I think it takes a lot of business owners. Just
[00:44:21]Bryan Fields: by ,
[00:44:24]Kellan Finney: Right? Just, I mean, you’re watching products drop 90%. Yeah. Or something ridiculous from a whole wholesale perspective.
[00:44:30] So I think that’s the biggest kind of, uh, blindside situation that happens to a lot of new. New entries into the market space market. What do you think, Brian? I think
[00:44:40]Bryan Fields: what Hillary said about being nimble and flexible is, is so critical. I, I, I just don’t think people recognize that this is not your standard business.
[00:44:48] While things are as stable, you need to be flexible. You need to be nimble and you to be prepared for things to be harder than ever before. And even for someone like us who isn’t plant touching, has no experience in those, those fields still [00:45:00] get smashed with obstacles over and over again that are just.
[00:45:03] We can all agree silly, but is is just the challenges that face the industry and it’s just part of the experience of the, the learning curve. And you know, at the end of the day, I think a lot of people who are gonna get in, interested in making a ton of money are gonna be, you know, hit with some different resistance and think it’s gonna be harder than they ever thought.
[00:45:23] So. So Hillary, for our listeners, they want to get in touch. They wanna buy eighteen’s product. Where can they find.
[00:45:29]Hillary Peckham: You can find us all over. So we have an Instagram page, Twitter, um, our website is just www.etanhealth.com. Um, or you can email [email protected]. Any questions we have, Facebook, everything, uh, so that we’re pretty easy to find, um, and we love hearing from everybody.
[00:45:48] So, uh, please reach out. Everyone go by
[00:45:51]Bryan Fields: the powder in New York. Yeah. , thanks so much for your time. This was fun. Really.
Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
This week we are joined by Jane West, Founder of Jane West, to discuss:
The story behind the Swat Team storming her 4/20 brunch
Breaking stigmas for women and parents
Normalization of Cannabis
About Jane: Jane is the Founder and CEO of Jane West, the most widely distributed female owned cannabis brand in the world.
Her company produces over fifty products including custom designed glassware and consumption accessories available worldwide, as well as THC consumables sold in 12 US states and five Canadian provinces. She has raised over $1.7M to date and her successful equity crowdfunding rounds earned her over 3500 investors from 42 counties and every US state and territory.
In 2014, Jane founded Women Grow, currently the largest professional network in cannabis. Inc. magazine named her “the most widely recognized female personality in cannabis” and InStyle magazine included her in the ‘Badass 50’ list, highlighting the women who are “changing the world”.
Contact us directly at [email protected] Bryan Fields: @bryanfields24 Kellan Finney: @Kellan_Finney
[00:00:00]Bryan Fields: What’s up guys? Welcome back to an episode of The Dime. I’m Brian Fields. I’m with me as always, as ke Finnie. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, Jane West, founder of Jane West. Jane, thanks for taking the time. How you doing
[00:00:13]Jane West: today? I’m doing so great. Thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be on the
[00:00:17]Bryan Fields: show.
[00:00:18] We’re excited to have you Ke, how are you doing?
[00:00:21]Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. I’m really excited to talk to Jane and other Colorado local, helping push the industry forward. So how
[00:00:27]Bryan Fields: are you, Brian? I’m excited as well. Jane is our most shouted out guest on our podcast, so it’s nice to have her in the hot seat and, and to learn and dive in and all things about her.
[00:00:36] So, Jane, for our listeners, can give a little background about yourself.
[00:00:40]Jane West: Yes. Um, I started in the cannabis sector at 38 years old in 2013, right at the dawn of adult use cannabis in Colorado. Um, I, in my background, I have a master’s degree in social work and I worked mainly for nonprofits producing events, but I’ve always been a cannabis [00:01:00] lover and once it was clear that you could walk, adults could walk into a store and get this wide variety of products and the normalization that would go along with that.
[00:01:08] I wanted to make some cannabis friendly events and that we were in a gray zone for a while in Colorado. And so I founded Edible Edible Events Company. We produced one event a month, and uh, the first event was January 24th, 2014. It got tons of press. Um, so much press actually that, um, my corporate employer asked me to resign from my position, and that was just for like being.
[00:01:34] Just holding host weed party. So that made it onto the cover, The Denver Post. Um, at the time I definitely was not ready to go all in in cannabis, and I definitely didn’t even see myself as a ceo. I, you know, and I was, at that point in time, all my sponsorships were coming in bags of cash, as they almost still do.
[00:01:52] So, uh, Point is, um, it really gave me a lot of notoriety. I pivoted and started [00:02:00] producing events with the Colorado Symphony Orchestra, uh, classically cannabis. We even did an event at Red Rocks, um, on a high note, and that made like the cover of the New York Times. Um, but because of the popularity we were getting, uh, Mayor Hancock, who definitely has been like pretty anti-cannabis.
[00:02:16] Um, despite all the benefits that has brought Denver and Colorado. Um, He was like, These events are getting out of, out, you know, the too gray. And they sent a SWAT team to my four 20 Waken bacon brunch at a small, uh, female owned bakery. And that was, that was became a pretty big news story too. I ended up with criminal misdemeanor charges and wasn’t, you know, able to do anything related to cannabis for 18 months.
[00:02:43] And it was at that point that I founded Women Grow because women, I mean, I had been on all. Different articles from like Al JIRAs to cnbc, sp, you know, features on marijuana in America. And women were reaching out to me from all over the world, How do I get in the campus [00:03:00] industry? How do I do what you do?
[00:03:01] I wanna work for you, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And you know, I wanted to help them find their place. I almost immediately. Identify that this is, has to be, they have to organize themselves state by state. Because I tried to help a few individuals and just learning how different each state was going to evolve and how critical it was.
[00:03:21] You had the right business context in your state. Um, was like the gonna be the. The central issue that most of them faced instead establishing a cannabis business, um, where they live. And so we, I found a women grow. I worked on that for 18 months, hire the next generation of staff. And then in 2017, after having about two and a half years learning the sector, meeting so many people, traveling to so many states, being in so many girls and learning so much, um, I went on on my own and started building my own brand.
[00:03:51] So I started with consumer product goods, glassware of line of dugouts, everything custom designed for what I saw and what I wanted, you know, my aesthetic [00:04:00] of cannabis to be like. Um, and then over time we’ve gotten into actually branding cannabis. It’s one of the number one questions I get is what should I buy and where should I buy from?
[00:04:10] And even if I’m looking at someone’s, you know, menu board, it’s very hard for me to provide. At the same time I’ve watched the way the cannabis industry is involved, and I think it is really important to be supporting locally owned diversely held cannabis businesses. And so I do both of those things by expanding my brand with cannabis operators.
[00:04:33] So, so we now have cannabis partners and 12 states and five provinces of Canada. Um, and they carry, Jane must branded products in day and.
[00:04:45] I’m glad
[00:04:45]Bryan Fields: you shared those things. And before we dove into the, the consumption lounges, I wanna speak more specifically about your background. Like did you, were you always a trailblazer? Was it something that you recognized earlier before the cannabis started or was something that you kind of just fell into and [00:05:00] recognized your, your fit?
[00:05:01] How did that work?
[00:05:02]Jane West: Um, I mean, I’ve always been pretty driven and I’ve always been fairly irreverent, which I think you need around here in the cannabis sector, um, with so many opinions out there. Um, what I really wanted to do, um, throughout my twenties and thirties, I worked in New York, um, at the United Nations, and I really wanted to work in disaster.
[00:05:22] That was like my first big, like, that’s what I thought I would be doing. And so, um, like for the American Red Cross, I worked with, um, African refugees and like that, that was what I wanted to do, um, and in emergency services. And so, um, I was wor and that that’s what led me to get my master screen social work.
[00:05:40] Um, but yeah, I, you know, I think that I’ve always wanted to do, I, I find inspiration in a lot of places. And I also am always trying to just like pave my own path. And now that’s even more important. People are [00:06:00] watching what I’m doing all the time and also like trying to model their own businesses out there.
[00:06:05] And I wish there I had more people that were the CEOs and owners of their cannabis companies that I could watch. And want to emulate or want to model my business after. And there’s just not enough independently owned businesses out there, um, for me to have a bunch of comps. And so, um, so I try to just keep showing people that there’s a way to do this and to build your business without selling out to public trade companies, without selling out to s without, um, you know, like letting your idea get so diluted that it’s not even.
[00:06:42] Inspiring anymore because that is like the only way to keep going around here, especially in year eight now that I’m in, is to be inspired and motivated that you can actually do something really different. Um, because otherwise it’s just, it’s just not [00:07:00] worth it. It’s so hard. It’s so much work.
[00:07:02]Kellan Finney: Was that, uh, some of the motivation behind the brand name?
[00:07:07]Jane West: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, um, with, with everything related to Jane West, uh, some of my first inspiration. And, and what I wanted to have the brand be like in terms of like our shelf presence and our brand impressions. Um, well first of all, it’s really important to make cannabis simple for everyone. I agree.
[00:07:25] In my opinion. Cause it’s still, like, for most people it is still very confusing. And I still have people that like pick up my, like steam rollers and things and like are like, Do I put my mouth here? Like all the time? And you’re like, Oh my gosh, wait. We’re like trying to tell ’em about terpenes and they literally don’t know how to, you know, use, use this device.
[00:07:44] And there’s reasons for that. We all know because all the suppression of, of, of quality educational information is the most likely to be suppressed and removed. Um, we went into the studio after all my glassware and dugouts landed. [00:08:00] In 2017, it made 25 videos just showing people like, This is how you use this.
[00:08:05] This is how you do this. You put a half a cup of water into the bomb. Like that’s how much you know, information that people need to like, use these basic thing, um, basic products and have a better experience. Um, and so with a cannabis flower and the branding, it’s about making it simple and understandable.
[00:08:21] So we do everything in day and night. I don’t feel like sat sati and enga you. They’re, those are not, those words I don’t think are going away anytime soon, especially from hearing the way people talk in dispensaries and there is a truth to it and what people are looking for in their flower and the way the flower’s grown.
[00:08:39] And so day and night is, Is that same delineation and it’s instantly understandable and it’s translatable. Like we have partners in Spain, in other countries, and um, it helps people. And then everything we do is in dosed sizes, so it’s the right amount of flour. I think 0.35 grams is like a serving size.
[00:08:58] So that’s the size of my [00:09:00] joints, and that’s the size of, that’s the amount of flour in each one of our prepec pipes. And that’s the per, that’s the amount of flour that fits perfectly in the bowls we’ve designed, um, to really just have that like replicable, trusted, reliable cannabis experience, um, and really give people the confidence they need to be better consumers.
[00:09:20]Bryan Fields: That intention of
[00:09:21]Kellan Finney: detail is unheard of. I mean, I, I’ve seen so many different bull sizes for long. It’s wild. So like, I have to give you mad
[00:09:28]Jane West: props. There’s so many parts about bulls. I’ve studied them so much and that’s why the, um, the triangle bowl on my steam is one of my favorite things because you want the most green as possible.
[00:09:39] Yeah. But because glass wants to be a circle, most bulls are big circles. You char the top of it and then, you know, That’s your experience. So there’s so much that can be done to innovate in Classware. It’s amazing.
[00:09:52]Bryan Fields: And, and staying with the, the packaging. Right. I know you said day and night the, the products on the website were white and black.
[00:09:58] And I thought that was a very [00:10:00] creative way of delineating between the two because I was assuming there’d be more color in influx on it, but then I thought more about it and that color is abundantly used by everyone else. Yeah. And the simplicity of it is helpful and people who are overwhelmed because it’s comforting to see something and say, Hey, this makes sense to me.
[00:10:17] So is that kind of the inspiration behind.
[00:10:19]Jane West: Definitely that is def, like that’s definitely a component of it. And also just like if you walk through, um, the makeup section of any major department store, like almost all the packaging is, is even though makeup is colorful, almost all the packaging is like simple, black and white.
[00:10:36] Um, and also just having people be able to. I mean, most women buy, there’s so many products sold in day and night from creams to cleaning supplies, you know, And so having that like understandable purchasing pattern is also really useful for people. Um, additionally, oh wait, was I gonna, No, you’re gonna have to [00:11:00] edit this part out where I’m thinking about the thing about Black.
[00:11:02] Oh, I know what I was gonna say. Um, beyond that, I need to make sure that my brand. Has universal like, uh, representation across all of North America. because we have shelf presence on over 500 dispensary shelves. And in Canada and in, like for instance, Florida, there’s crazy rules about what you can and can’t have in terms of your outer packaging.
[00:11:28] And so no going into designing everything, knowing that. That even if I come up with the coolest thing, I’m not gonna be able to have it on the outside of the package anyway. Um, and then that’s what really led to like that simple just JW logo design that we do have trademark now, um, because, um, that JW meets or exceeds all standards across North America for being able to brand a cannabis.
[00:11:53] product
[00:11:54]Kellan Finney: I think it’s so clean too. You look at a lot of the most successful consumer packaged goods, right? Like [00:12:00] Apple, if we’re gonna call an iPhone, a consumer packaged good, right? Like the packaging is so simple, but I think it resonates with consumers so well. And so I give you mad props on that. And I mean, I think cannabis too just has so much noise in it that it’s actually refreshing to see something that’s so clean and simple.
[00:12:16]Jane West: I wish it was even cleaner. But the pa, the, I mean, the packaging loans are just completely outta control, which
[00:12:21]Bryan Fields: is, Yeah, well, they’re, they’re making it easier by making it harder for every single person, but I think it’s really smart of you to associate the, the makeup tendencies, because I think consumers, when they’re purchasing products, especially for the first time, they like to lean into things that they’re familiar with.
[00:12:35] So how do we get more women to feel comfortable kind of making that move into cannabis, right? Ones that are maybe more common with wine and looking or are open to that. How do we change that and move them in?
[00:12:47]Jane West: Well, I, I, Think of multiple things. Well, number one, the cannabis industry is becoming like almost b2b, where.
[00:12:59] Like we [00:13:00] are listening to ourselves and forming this industry, and all the companies are listening. Um, but also, you know, we’re now we’re dealing with these public markets and all these other things, but that all of that, the finance sector, uh, VC world, publicly traded companies, those are we female friendly places already to begin with, you know?
[00:13:18] And so there’s ways that the cannabis industry is, is evolving, that women are still being addressed by the major companies. As if we’re some niche market. And so that is one thing that definitely has to change is that like we are regular consumers and heavy consumers and there should be a wide variety of products for everyone.
[00:13:40] Just because it’s for women doesn’t mean it’s like smaller and a color and has like lipstick on it. You know, like that’s, that’s two pigeonhole. So all companies seem to do better, um, in terms of offering a wide variety of products. There’s a lot of products out there for women’s needs for, from like, uh, [00:14:00] different, you know, period pain or, um, sex enhancement and things that just aren’t widely available.
[00:14:06] And, um, they, if they were more widely available, I believe more women would be incorporating them into their lives. Um, so that’s one part. Um, the second component is that, um, okay, wait. I was writing the thing. Sorry, I made notes. Oh, do people probably don’t just stop talking in the middle of the thing. Are you gonna edit
[00:14:27]Bryan Fields: We can do, We can do it if you want.
[00:14:29]Jane West: Okay. Um, the other thing that, the other component of it is normalization and so, That’s what I tried to do from the very beginning, back in 2013, like they were posting, or major publications were posting articles about my events in an art gallery with live music and chefs and women in like, you know, cocktail dresses.
[00:14:53] But the pictures that were being run alongside of it were like a guy with a bong in his lap. Because it was like [00:15:00] weed events are back. Right. And. Without social use, without like being able to go in public and with, without any shame, like consume cannabis like you would, not in the back alley, not, you know, and not in like some of these lounge situations that are evolving either, like without social use, that part of normalization where you see.
[00:15:22] That cannabis is for everyone, That everyone can benefit from it, that everyone consumes it. That it’s not like the stoner stereotype that is still prevalent and is still the imagery that is being utilized with articles that are out there. You know, there’s just, it’s not a picture of, you know, an older woman in her backyard enjoying a joint, you know?
[00:15:44] And so, um, it has a lot to do for me with what we can do to make it better, is to normalize. The consumption of cannabis in a manner that it, it seems every day it’s not abnormal. [00:16:00] Um, and like when I look at Bravo television shows, which I’ve been approached by so many different people for so many different things, but ultimately, The weed parts keep getting cut, you’re still not seeing it, you know, and it’s because like advertisers don’t wanna be up against it and major networks aren’t gonna carry someone inhaling and exhaling.
[00:16:20] Like I’ve seen the list of the rules. And without that out there, without that imagery, like people are still gonna, it’s still taboo, It’s still in the back alley, It’s still something that’s not commonplace. And so, um, that’s really a key component, like for the amount of. Close up shots they have of a wine glass in all the television shows, like really directed towards women.
[00:16:44] Um, if just a temp of that was a close up of a joint or a, or a woman standing there like with the bong in her hand, like normal, the, that’s what’s really gonna start changing minds.
[00:16:56]Kellan Finney: Yeah, you speak of normalization, right? And you mentioned [00:17:00] how the VC world is significantly different, right? And so with your brand, I think your brand was one of the first brands to be listed on a crowdfunding site, Republics, right?
[00:17:10] Yeah. Yep. So can you kind of talk us through that conversation with Republics? I mean, clearly they thought your brand was.
[00:17:18]Bryan Fields: Not ruffling
[00:17:20]Kellan Finney: any feathers. Right, Right. To be able to be listed on there so you’re closer to normalization than a lot of the other brands in industry or companies out there. So you kind of talk us through the process of being listed on republics, those conversations that occurred during that
[00:17:34]Jane West: process.
[00:17:35] Yes, definitely. So after raising 1.2 billion, 2 billion from VCs for my first Roundup products, like, and it took a really long time because I was not gonna just have like all rich white guys owning, you know, running the comp, owning the most key equity components of the company. And so my company is 80% held by women and people of color.
[00:17:54] Um, but after like that round, I wanted something different and I wanted to [00:18:00] show. Other women, other small business owners, other locally own businesses. Like there’s another way other than just having these one on one conversations with one investor where like you could spend a whole month and then it’s, then they’re gone and what have you done?
[00:18:14] You’ve made impressions on one group, but by being able to have a crowdfunding page as a cannabis company, you’re able to. I’m able to have all of my products on one page, show them everything I’m creating. I can’t even do that in the real digital world where all of my glassware and dugouts have to be on one site and the CBD has to be on another site and the content has to be on third site, and they all need different bank accounts.
[00:18:40] So, you know. Being able to have my whole deal page out there for hundreds of thousands of people to see was huge. And that is the key component of what I’m doing. And in terms of building brand equity and building the company to me, and a brand impression where someone leaves going, Jane West is a cannabis, global [00:19:00] cannabis brand, that’s a win.
[00:19:02] And so having people that didn’t even invest but went into the site and read it all, that’s like, that’s a huge win. When I started looking at crowd funding and the different, um, things that the Obama’s 20 thirteens Job Jobs Act allowed everyday people, you know, created this retail investor land. Um, uh, I was really inspired.
[00:19:21] And I also found, and this is also like good advice, I think, for people who are trying to find their way in the sectors. Like when you get inspired by something, keep going there, keep going in that direction. Cause I was looking at people’s decks for the VC world and. It felt like, so kind of out of my league and different terminology, and then when I’d go to the crowdfunding sites and talk to other CEOs that did it successfully, it would, it was really inspiring to see like how they did it and they’re able to do it themselves.
[00:19:48] Um, so I went to Republic. I did have to like constantly prove to the s sec that I’m not plan touching and, and I still am not, I’m still selling, you know, packaging to our partners through licensing and royalty [00:20:00] agreements. Um, but that was really hard to do. I’m very motivated and I encourage, um, the other, your listeners to go to Main Vest, which is really embracing cannabis.
[00:20:11] It’s it’s true debt structure. So our recent safe round on there didn’t do very well. The fact that you can have, you can be plant touching an edibles company, a cultivation. And have your, your, your brand listed, have people investing in you. Also for people starting new businesses, I direct them there because you have to have all your financials, you have to have your business plan, You have to show investors what you’re building.
[00:20:35] And so for new entrepreneurs to see that and to be able to drill down into all those different businesses on main best, or the few cannabis companies that were on Republic, that’s really valuable. It’s almost. Like going to a cla, a crash course and creating decks for cannabis brands. So, um, the other reason I was really excited about crowdfunding and the work that had to go behind it was, It was [00:21:00] clear that I was preparing my company for the next level.
[00:21:03] So in order to do it, in order to raise funds on these SCC regulated sites, I need gap compliant reviewed financials. I need to be, you know, ready to be audited at any time. I, um, need to really have tight awareness. All of the numbers of the company and being, going through that process, um, and going through the review stage.
[00:21:25] Now I can date back three years, which is, you know, critical for if I’m looking to an exit. Um, because that was like a requirement of doing it. It was not fun, like completing a Form C and all these documents like, It was definitely one of those things that I questioned whether or not I would be able to actually do it, like mostly on my own.
[00:21:46] And, and I did, and you can, and other people can too. And so, um, but the process of doing it and answering all those questions and knowing the kinds of questions that, that you have to be ready to answer for in terms of invest relations [00:22:00] that is like such. Incredibly valuable experience. Um, and I, and that’s one of the reasons why I encourage so many other people to like, just at least look at it and consider it.
[00:22:11] Additionally, I’m not a wealthy person, , and I don’t know that many wealthy people. And so, um, when people were like, Oh, you’ll have a friends and family round, that’s where you just like, call people up and they give you like $50,000 and I’m like, Oh. I, I don’t know those people . So, so equity crowdfunding also allows for people like my parents and my brother and my business partners and my old colleagues to get to like actually have a piece in the company at the amount that they are able to do, you know?
[00:22:44] So, um, and additionally, once I started learning more, Fundraising to begin with and what an accredited investor even is like, This is back in the day, but still, But I was like, Oh, this guy wants to gimme 5K and that person wants to gimme 10 K. Maybe like, [00:23:00] I think I got a few small people. Then the next question was, will they accredited investors?
[00:23:05] Uh, no. What’s an incredible investor? Oh, someone who’s already rich . So you can only take the money from people that are already rich. So, um, learning about that and how much everyday people are kept out of being able to invest in startups they believe in, um, was bothersome to me. And so seeing this option, like, and being inspired by being able to build my audience and build my brand.
[00:23:29] Build my network. Uh, that was what really like sold me on equity crowd funding. And so at this point we have over 3000 investors from 42 countries. Wow. And every US state and territory. And so that alone is a huge brand equity builder. Um, dispo in, in addition to that, you end up with funds that you can use to fuel your company.
[00:23:52]Bryan Fields: It’s amazing. And the story of going through it has gotta be incredibly challenging. And as you’ve listed out in cannabis is even harder, which just kind of layers [00:24:00] on top of everything. But I think it’s really commendable that you were able to accomplish that and even more so that the response has been so many people across the globe investing in someone like yourself who’s leading the charge forward.
[00:24:10] But there’s one topic that’s really important to me that I wanna get your opinion on being stoned and parenting. What, what are your thoughts and do you think the word being high is part of the problem?
[00:24:22]Jane West: Um, well, I think the word being stoned is worse than being high. Um, I know for a long time people were like trying to get the word elevated out there, you know, But it is, it is what it is.
[00:24:34] Like normalcy to me would be just, If someone’s like, Oh God, I was so drunk last night, you’re not gonna believe what I did. And like listing off the thing. You know, if someone is as comfortable being like, I was so high last night, I da, da, da. You know, if conversations are happening more normal like that, like just calling it what it is, you know, um, versus trying to like reframe it all.
[00:24:58] That’d be good. Um, I [00:25:00] think one of the issues, it’s, it’s what people think it. The most concerning part is when you use this terminology is when the person using the terminology does not use bot cannabis at all and doesn’t even quite understand what they’re talking, you know, what, what exactly they’re saying.
[00:25:20] Um, I think the words are problematic because of the relation to other drugs that maybe are, you know, more, um, You know, hard, harder drugs and things that like, getting high. Like what do they even mean? Uh, what are you even talking about ? So, um, I do think it comes down a lot to framing and one of my biggest things that I’m trying to help women especially, um, talk about is like, what are they afraid of?
[00:25:50] You know, what are you afraid of? And most women will say, um, it’s about losing control. That’s what they’re, you know, worried about. I mean, if [00:26:00] you’ve watched girls be like, I drunk, people are more out of control than any type of like stoner I’ve ever seen. So really like learning like what its effects on you, that it’s, you know, it’s just not quite what this stereotype is, but again, This goes back to being able to social use, to being able to have your friends at maybe a festival go over to the side and instead of getting a 24 ounce beer, smoke a joint and then have like a normal afternoon altogether, enjoying yourselves with your substances of choice, um, that’s gonna really trigger people like, Oh, this isn’t quite what I thought it would be.
[00:26:40] Um, you’re reminding me of when I first started the events and I went to different cater. To be my caterer for the event. And I got turned down. I was surprised. I mean, I’m bringing them business right for once a month for an event that’s gonna get a bunch of press. Um, and like one woman was like, Well what will [00:27:00] happen when people start vomiting from the weed and then they’ll blame it on the food.
[00:27:05] And I was. Why is that’s not what’s happens, you know, and just, you, you, you, it was really like, it really highlighted for me, like how far we have to go with educating people about cannabis. Um, hopefully, With everything that’s occurring on in psychedelics, that all of this will like become part of the bigger conversation.
[00:27:28] Cause women are saying the same thing about ketamine, about mushrooms, about L S D. And I think once we get more women utilizing these products in safe environments, Confidently cause it’s really about confidence. You know, it’s, these are psychoactive drugs we’re taking. So if you’re already predisposed to think that something might go wrong, it might.
[00:27:51] And if you’re already predisposed to be like, I love cannabis and this is gonna make my day so much better, , then it probably will. Um, [00:28:00] and so it’s really just about changing those viewpoints.
[00:28:02]Bryan Fields: It’s all about, It’s so important too, because I wanted to share stories. I was with couple of friends and we were gathering around, and one of my friends.
[00:28:12] Not shaming so much of my, my buddy, but saying that, you know, he had a tough day at work and went outside to smoke a joint and then continued to parent and was completely normal and she was upset about that. And I asked her, I was like, Have you ever grabbed a glass of wine after a tough day and continued to parent?
[00:28:28] And she goes, Yes, but it’s different. And that’s when I was like,
[00:28:33]Jane West: Why? Culturally, I mean, in my opinion, it is not different at all. In fact, actually, I mean in my. Especially when your kids are a little bit younger. A few puffs definitely makes like an hour of play dough so much more fun. Million times. And yeah, and I just absolutely know.
[00:28:53] It’s almost like insulting candidly to patients and individuals that use cannabis every single day for [00:29:00] even their medical purposes that like you’re assuming they’re incapable of. Taking care of their lives. We’ve proven in all of these states over and over again that that’s simply not true. Um, and so yeah, again, more normalcy, but it is, it’s unfortunate that there’s these like.
[00:29:17] Hire these, hire these judgemental standards and like so much subjectivity around the topic. Um, and it’s why like so many women are turning to like vape and they like edibles. Um, and maybe not so much smoking, but the smell of. Cannabis or the smell of, you know, combusted cannabis. Um, and that’s one of the things I’ve always tried to change because I love flour and there’s a reason flour is still king.
[00:29:43] Even though as like, I’m sure Helen does in like 20 14, 15, you’re like, There’s never gonna be flour again is gonna take over the world. Everyone’s just gonna eat it and bath it and put it another scanner. And so that’s just not the case cuz Flower does what [00:30:00] women want out of pills. It’s like an almost immediate, um, effect that you’re looking for.
[00:30:07] And so I know that’s out there and that’s why I’ve always tried to create small, dosable flower products of quality product that will re like, lead to a reliable, reputable experience and, uh, get more women to try it. Alcohol is a poison, and I am inspired by some of the more, like, uh, there’s a lot of influencers out there in like their twenties that are talking about that, more about like how it is, it’s not healthy for you, It’s not, you know, it’s, it’s inhi, it, you know, lowers your inhibitions, but is that necessarily the right thing?
[00:30:45] And for a lot of women, like, like I smoke cannabis before yoga. Almost every time, and like, and it helps me with the breathing. It helps me with my mind, body awareness. And so, um, just more people [00:31:00] talking about how they incorporate in their lives would be helpful. Unfortunately, we don’t have. You know, the, the places to build those audiences, we can’t talk about it openly on Instagram and these different places, and there’s not a lot of educational content that’s customer facing.
[00:31:17] So it’s really just about like waiting time and having more and more people utilize the product and things to their friends. And then that’s really how most women that I know have started trying new products is like one of their friends tries. They really like it and then they have that confidence and they try to, and they realize how misinformed they had been.
[00:31:44]Kellan Finney: Do you think that consumption lounges are like the needed catalyst to kind of finish the transition from a cultural stigma perspective? Right. Because it’s been legal in Colorado since 2014 and it’s just been like a really slow grind. Yeah. You know what [00:32:00] I mean? Changing all of these people’s opinions, but I think like you’re speaking on.
[00:32:04] Seeing other people consume it in these different form factors. And the best way to do that would be a consumption lounge. Do you think that is the catalyst?
[00:32:11]Jane West: Um, I, in a, in a way I do. I, It’s just not enough normalization. Because it’s still like this one little place you go and the vast majority of consumption, I don’t know anywhere where there’s also alcohol.
[00:32:24] So that’s also not normalization, you know? And so, I mean, to me it really just needs to be like a little bit like what New York did, cuz I’ve been in New York a couple times since. Um, you could just smoke on the street. And I do like that. Like I walk out of, you know, the hotel I always like, I love seeing at the standard and I walk down the block and yeah, there’s no like kids around and I light up a joint and I smoke it and I know like I’m, I’m safe there.
[00:32:49] And so that, that those types of changes are what I, I, I think need to happen more. Um, Like, I’ve [00:33:00] seen also, like in my, a lot of the women and people that have moved to Oklahoma, um, where there’s like just this really robust cannabis family. Um, and that, that’s where I’ve seen more like normalization, where like it is, there are kids there and they’re just on the other side of the yard, but it’s okay that you’re consuming this over on this side and it’s very normalized and, um, and just part of everyday life.
[00:33:25] And that’s, those are the things that we really need to start seeing more.
[00:33:29]Bryan Fields: One of the things that excites me most about cannabis is the fact that I, I think as more women become, let’s say, on board in certain areas, women are the decision makers and the couples. So as those trends continue, move forward, I feel like there’s a massive unlocking that will will continue to happen.
[00:33:45] I read a statistic that said, 43% of all couples say the woman is the decision maker in the family. And for me that is probably a hundred percent. She is the decision maker. So do you think as women become more comfortable with cannabis, we will see the changing of some of these stigmas, maybe the adoption on [00:34:00] shows on Bravo?
[00:34:00] Do you think things like that will happen? I hope
[00:34:02]Jane West: so. It better, I mean, how much longer is this gonna keep going on? Um, You know. Yeah. That was some of the major, major talking points when we first started, when I was doing my first pitches, was like, women are the chief medical officers of their family, you know, buying even like CBD products and different things for their kids.
[00:34:19] Um, and so, um, and they, they control what comes in the house. They’re making those purchasing decisions. Absolutely. And so that is why it is key to be able to, um, have those right products directed at them and have a dispensary experience that’s tailored to them. Um, I feel like there’s a component here with interstate commerce and the ability to purchase products like we purchase our current products like on Amazon and online like we do.
[00:34:52] Um, that maybe will be a big domino if we can, you know, if I can get Flower from Humboldt and this product from [00:35:00] there and, and have this network of, of, of, uh, businesses that. I’m purchasing from that isn’t just limited to my geographic area and the one dispensary on my Corner that it, which is not the way really anything works that we consume daily.
[00:35:19] Um, so that, that, that will hope, that would really make a lot of change in my opinion. Um, but you’re just, no matter what your product is right now, You’re limited to in the dispensary setting, um, to who is willing to drive to your location and come into your retail store and purchase it from you. And so reducing some of those barriers, um, for these products would be excellent.
[00:35:44] And we know people are buying alcohol online and getting cases a bit shipped to them. And we additionally, Schedule one drugs are being shipped all over this country every single day. You know, the VA sends them everywhere. And so the ability to do [00:36:00] this is right there. And so, so having so like that would really into the actual existing purchasing patterns of women right now,
[00:36:10]Bryan Fields: what is one way cannabis has helped you that most others do not realize?
[00:36:16]Jane West: Oh my goodness. What is one way. And cannabis has helped me that most others do not realize. Um, Well, I would repeat the part about yoga and the fact that I truly do consume cannabis, um, in relation to exercising and, uh, working out even. Do
[00:36:43]Bryan Fields: you have, do you have a specific product that you go to in those examples?
[00:36:46]Jane West: Um, No, I mean, just like all the different, you know, I go to yoga a lot. That’s like my fa my number one thing. And, um, and so just like all the classes are different, like I’m down with that. So at night I’ll definitely be more likely to consume a [00:37:00] night. Varietal. Um, and if I need like a little more energy cause I’m not really feeling the class, then I would definitely go with more of a day varietal.
[00:37:08] Um, for things like uh, orange Theory and like the more like boot campy workout classes, that’s like definitely more of a gummy that I’m gonna take about 45 minutes before the class. Um, but really just like it gets you more into the music, it gets you more into not thinking about like how many more reps you have to do.
[00:37:25] Like, you’re just more in flow. And I think a lot of women wouldn’t necessarily think that. Um, but also, you know, there’s reason there’s not like wine and yoga classes. There’s like, if you really take a look at it, you start to see some of the differences out there, you know? Um, and so yeah, it’s really just additionally, I.
[00:37:47] And this comes a little bit from my social work background too. I feel like cannabis helps you clear your mind and, and in a way that sometimes it’s hard for me to [00:38:00] describe because it’s not about forgetting. Because you know, oh, you’re forgetful. Or short term memory or whatever. Like, it’s about just like clearing your mind from all the small thoughts you have every single day that are keeping you up, that are distracting you.
[00:38:13] From being present with your children, from being present in your job from like, at like all those little noisy voices. Um, I think women have a tendency to have more of those and really, like, can cannabis, I, I believe many of the women in my network, I know it helps them. Calm those voices, focus on themselves, go inward and be like better and be better.
[00:38:40] That’s like better with Jane and Is has always been our number one, um, tagline, and it does, it just makes your day better and it makes them better. That was
[00:38:49]Bryan Fields: perfectly said. Uh, I do have to go back and ask about the SWAT brunch though, because it would, you’d be wrong to not ask about that. Ah, were you shocked?
[00:38:59] Were you [00:39:00] surprised? Oh my gosh, I was so shocked. What, what was the feeling when the SWAT walked in?
[00:39:03]Jane West: Okay, first of all, it was Easter Sunday too, so like, there was lot, there was lots of, there’s so many things going on that day. Um, it was 4 20, 20 14. And it was a small bakery on Broadway. And, um, a gentleman walked in at the very end and I thought he was a reporter the way he was like standing or whatever.
[00:39:22] And he had bought a ticket, which was key. Cause that was part of their whole like bust is that like I could buy a ticket online, so it must have been public. So, uh, he came in and came over and, and was asking me, Oh, are you Jane? And none of that. And he like reached in his pocket. I thought her sure he was getting.
[00:39:38] A business card to give me, and instead it was a badge. And then as soon as we turned, that was when like, I mean there were like people with guns. There were at least six men in all black. And then there was the gentleman, and then there were some more professionally dressed guys. And basically, uh, Mayor Hancock had sent this same team to like five different event [00:40:00] events that were happening on that four 20 to like shut everybody down and.
[00:40:04] And give criminal charges and stuff. And so, yeah. Um, we had just been talking like, just moments before we walked in about like how we could do this brunch every week. Like there’s so much demand, you know? And um, and the one thing I do remember, I mean, there’s lots of parts. I remember there were women outside painting pots, painting pots with a pot with thing and like everybody’s laughing, having a great time.
[00:40:30] Um, there was a couple there were at. Six couples at that, at that event that had flown in from other states. And uh, and there was this one couple from New Jersey that like, I, I mean, that guy got so white. I, he was so afraid that like something was really gonna happen legally to him, you know, as an nd And that, that’s a part that like really I felt the worst about.
[00:40:53] And my memories of it was, How scared people suddenly were of like, Oh my God, we, [00:41:00] it was, it was wrong. They are gonna bust us. You know? And so, and that’s, that just contributes to more of the anxiety and fear related to cannabis. So, um, it was quite a morning and then, so then the whole, it, it also was at the very end, which was a good thing because they couldn’t find it.
[00:41:15] Cause it’s kinda a private event. Uh, they couldn’t find where we were at first. And so, uh, and then, and then I went that afternoon cuz I, the other job I was trying to work up at the time to make money was to like, uh, run people’s booths at events. And so I was running a concentrate company’s booth with all these vintage pinball machines up at the Denver mark for.
[00:41:39] For the big cannabis cup thing. So, uh, I went up there in the afternoon and just tried to forget about it.
[00:41:45]Bryan Fields: Uh, it’s a pretty classic story though, right? You’re saying a bunch of people painting and then you’re like, someone asks you, how’d your day go? And you’re like, It wasn’t bad. The SWAT team visited and they didn’t stay.
[00:41:52] They, uh, they just
[00:41:53]Jane West: wanted them. The, they did everybody and, you know, made it hard on everybody. But that really was the first, you [00:42:00] know, that was only month three, and it was the first time that. The war on drugs and the war on people and how, um, it’s all just about enforcement. Like what they choose, what they, I hate to say they, what, what is chosen to be enforced versus what you can get away with.
[00:42:20] And who, um, really like took home, because I was in the courtroom at least six times over that summer following that. And every time I was the only white lady. I, most times I was the only white person and everyone else being seen in front of the judge, um, were, you know, black and brown men mostly. And, and these are the end being Denver is a really white city.
[00:42:45] So if these are all the people getting tickets and criminal charges for this product that is being widely sold, like what is going on? And so, and that was what really started, like I started, you know, getting more connected with ssdp and I started [00:43:00] adjusting my talking points so that I would be using part of my platform to address like how, um, Stark.
[00:43:08] The, the differences in enforcement and who’s really, you know, winning and losing from legalization.
[00:43:15]Bryan Fields: Since you’ve been in the canna industry, what has been the biggest misconception?
[00:43:20]Jane West: Oh my goodness. Uh, the biggest mis that people are making money . Um, is it, I mean, when business really decide, it’d be more like that, that.
[00:43:31] You know, it’s profit and losses all together. So, um, finding, you know, so that’s one big misconception is that, you know, there’s a lot of product to sell, but it’s very expensive to sell it. Um, in terms of misconceptions, um, I would have to say also like the, I’m learning a lot more about psychedelics and things and like, I, I want all the miscon, like it’s the best if we can.
[00:43:58] Knock over as many of these Dominos as [00:44:00] possible from the beginning. So I do wanna have like a mushroom line. I do want women to try these other, uh, psychedelic drugs confidently. And so, um, I think that just everything related to the schedule of drug, these drugs that we as a country have removed access to, and especially the most natural ones, cannabis and mushrooms.
[00:44:25] Totally can grow your own. Totally. You know, you can do this on your own. Um, medicate the self medicate with these product. , Um, and, and teaching people that, that this doesn’t have to be something that you are going to a retail store and purchasing this thing, um, that it is something that like should at least be accessible and, um, and something that you can be far more hands on with.
[00:44:52] Then than you expect. My neighbor, um, grew a plant. He went and bought a clone and he put it in the, [00:45:00] in the backyard garden last summer. Just, and didn’t do anything different to it than, um, the tomatoes right next to it. And he ended up with 22 ounces. You know, I like harvested it and dried it and put it together and sure, maybe it wasn’t like true and perfect like boni style, but it was great and that was so much flour.
[00:45:21] And so I think one of the things that, that cannabis consumers, especially as we start to normalize it, need to be talking about and demanding is home grow and the ability to grow your own and grow a plant in your backyard and consume it. And um, and that’s something that I think people do have a misconception.
[00:45:39] About, about how hard it is, um, because it really is meant to be grown outdoors. , it’s a plant and so it’s not as hard when you’re doing it the right way, uh, like outside. And so, um, that’s something that I hope people start like thinking about more. Like, wait, why can’t I just quote to myself
[00:45:59]Bryan Fields:[00:46:00] Before we do predictions, we ask all of our guests.
[00:46:02] You can sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson, learn to pass onto the next generation, what would it be? Hmm.
[00:46:12]Jane West: Um, I would mainly want you to remember that we are only serving a small slice of. The audience that cannabis can make better and whatever product, whatever brand, whatever business you can envision that you would wanna buy from, that, you would want, you should be pushing to make that a reality.
[00:46:40] Because, um, what we see right now is the result of. Publicly traded companies and lots of different decisions being made about what’s out there on the shelves. But what people need is, you know, the answer to that when you’re throwing your hat in the ring and you’re getting into the cannabis sector. Like, keep following [00:47:00] your dreams of what you wanna see out there, especially if you don’t see it right now.
[00:47:04] Um, and then I guess the second thing that I always remember and it really helps is, uh, I don’t know anything about. At all. I don’t know anything. I, every day I’m learning new things. You can never start assuming that you are necessarily an expert, and that’s kind of how you become an expert. Um, and so just keep following that path because.
[00:47:29] There’s only a small slice being offered right now to, to two small business owners of what you can and can’t do in the sector, and there’s so much more out there. Don’t limit yourself by the playing board that’s been created, and that exists in 2022. Start building a new playing board for two, three years from now and um, and then you’ll be able to have more of an effect.
[00:47:56] On what you do and your future and your [00:48:00] business when you’re part of actually the wing.
[00:48:03]Bryan Fields: So well said. Love it. Thank you. All right.
[00:48:06]Jane West: Prediction. There was one thing that I haven’t gone through yet that I was, that I, I was gonna mention do it cause it’s like this little note card that I made when I first like started the brand and it was my inspiration behind the Jane West component because there’s just not autonomous brands out there with, there are in almost everything else.
[00:48:24] And so from the 18 hundreds. Basically in the 18 hundreds, the following men started companies selling alcohol. Jim Beam, Johnny Walker, Jack Daniels, Gerard Heineken, Joseph Seagram, Jose Krivo, and Ed Anheiser, Fado, Bacardi, Ado Bush, Joseph Cos, Frederick Miller, Richard Hennessy, John shs, and Peter Smirnoff.
[00:48:49] And every single one of those. Is still in American homes and on shelves today, and they all started their alcohol companies within the same like 50 years of each [00:49:00] other. And every single one is their actual name. And so like that was one of the like, okay, this is, I, I blew, like, that was one of the inspirations behind having the actual name brand.
[00:49:11] And, um, you know, backing, I think there’s, that’s one of the reasons why there’s a lack of trust and a lack of identification with so many cannabis brands is that there’s just not a face. There’s not a person behind it, you know, it’s like, A tree with like one of the balls removed or something, and like, it’s just not memorable or identifiable.
[00:49:33] And so the more people that start businesses and really are like defending and building something for certain, like the reasons they’re in it for, I think that’ll build more consumer confidence too. I love it.
[00:49:46]Bryan Fields: Cool. All right. Prediction time. Yes. Jane? Yes. With with new markets set to open. What can Newark consumers understand about buying legal cannabis products to help them [00:50:00] on their new journey into the cannabis space?
[00:50:04]Jane West: Um, I think that new customers should, It’s always good to kind of keep a log of what you’re buying and how the experience, how the experience went. I would stay diverse, keep, you know, trying new things and trying different things. Um, but as you continue on your journey, you’re gonna wanna start asking questions.
[00:50:27] Like, for me, the question is more like, who grew? Who owns that company? Where is this flower coming from? Is it grown outdoors or indoors? How was the extract? Taken from the plant. I think that’s one of the first questions that customers need to really learn about is like, what is the difference between distillate and full spectrum oil?
[00:50:51] Then we start going down all these different rabbit holes. But the point is, is that like you, you should be asking questions. It’s always helpful to be documenting your experience. [00:51:00] Make sure that you know, these are small businesses that are, hopefully, hopefully there are small businesses in your neighborhood and community that you can.
[00:51:11] You know, invest in by going. And being a customer there. So find the business that you really wanna truly be supporting cuz it really does matter and every day some of the best purveyors and some of like the best products out there, you know, these businesses are, are having a really hard time because they don’t have the audience, they don’t have the ability to advertise.
[00:51:32] So make sure that you are spending your cannabis dollars consciously. and, um, and enjoy your journey, ? Um, I would definitely, for like new consumers, I would, um, also like decide something you’re gonna do when you, after you’ve consumed it, and like prepare yourself for that. Like, whether that’s like something you wanna do creatively or.
[00:51:55] Like for me, like cleaning my house, things like that, that just make it better. [00:52:00] Um, you know, kind of like prepare yourself, like you’re gonna go on a little journey and, um, be ready for it and be excited about it. And I have a feeling that you’ll be better afterwards and, um, keep discovering new things about cannabis products.
[00:52:18]Kellan Finney: I think that a lot of new consumers favor high potency cuz it’s like one of the only metrics they can grab onto in terms of like what they’re getting in terms of bang for their buck. So I would say to try to avoid making purchasing decisions based on potency. And then I think the other thing that a lot of new consumers that happens to a lot of new consumers is they
[00:52:40]Bryan Fields: kind of get.
[00:52:42] Maybe brainwash.
[00:52:43]Kellan Finney: I don’t, I think it’s an aggressive word, but I can’t think of another adjective. They kinda get brainwashed from Bud Tenderers, right? Yeah. Especially in
[00:52:51] Colorado.
[00:52:51]Bryan Fields: Influence influenced,
[00:52:52]Kellan Finney: Influenced, that’s a much better word, influenced, especially in Colorado, because most dispensaries in Colorado are vertically integrated, and so [00:53:00] when they walk in and they’re like, Hey, what products should I buy?
[00:53:03] Or this, the bud tenders automatically been trained to help push the stores product like that they grew. So I think that. That’s the other thing to just be really aware of is when you walk into dispensaries, the first product that the bud tender is going to put in front of you is most likely something that makes the dispensary the most money with the highest margin, and it may not be what you’re really looking for.
[00:53:25] So those are kind of the two things that I
[00:53:27]Bryan Fields: would say. What, What’s your thoughts, Brian? I think being open to new experiences. I think sometimes people get associated cannabis with like the college experience. Like I had this edible one time in college and it made me really sleepy. Well, that’s not the same type of edible you’re gonna have now.
[00:53:41] And I think people can get past. If you don’t wanna smoke, you don’t have to smoke. You can consume in other ways. And I think as soon as we can. Unlock the stigma and remove that and allow people to feel more comfortable. Being present is such an unlocker in so many ways, and being able to reset your day after you’ve done a million A things.
[00:53:57] And the more specifically I’m thinking about my wife, who’s, [00:54:00] she’s a school teacher, she’s dealing with those challenges and she comes home, she’s leading the child, and she has to deal with me and then. She, she tries to go to sleep and there’s 10 do million things on her mind and just trying to help her reset.
[00:54:10] I think if she can find a low and slow product, but, and then not, and not get caught up in that and just kind of take the notes, like you said, Jane, I think that can really make a difference for
[00:54:18]Jane West: her. That’s really about confidence, you know, That’s what people need to, to feel good about trying this new product and really have a positive experience.
[00:54:30] Love it.
[00:54:31]Bryan Fields: So, Jane, for our listeners, they wanna get in touch, they wanna learn more, and they wanna buy Jane’s products or invest. Where can they find you? Ah,
[00:54:37]Jane West: well, um, you can go to jane west.com and find out everything about what we’re doing. There’s tabs there for signing up for an investor newsletter and also every single product I need is there in the shop, and it’ll take you out to the different stores that you can buy it from.
[00:54:51] You can follow us on Twitter, Atj West. Um, Instagram’s deciding whether or not I get my account back, but you can follow a shop, [00:55:00] Jane West and, um, yeah, just, you know, support. We have partners in 12 states that are like my growing some of my favorite flower and perfectly sized products, so find out if they, you can find our map of partners online.
[00:55:15] I’d love for you to stop by some of those dispensaries where I know you’ll get a great experience and the education that you’re looking for.
[00:55:22]Bryan Fields: Awesome. We will link those up in the show notes. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you for having
